Ableton Forum

To those who are not alarmed, or are fine with the decisions our government makes on all our behalves, why argue with people who want better decisions or a better administration. I mean, it's going your way just fine, right?


Checking Big Brother

Jan. 23, 2006
(CBS/AP)

(The American Prospect) This column was written by Christopher Pyle. CBS.

How many terrorists do you suppose we have in the United States today? Real terrorists, like Mohammed Atta, who led the attacks of September 11, as opposed to anti-war Quakers?

Seriously. What’s your best guess? Fifty? One hundred? More?

Before 9-11, the FBI’s watch list consisted of only 16 names. Today it contains 80,000. As of June 2005, the National Counterintelligence Center had amassed files on 190,000 individuals. Do these numbers strike you as reasonable, or are suspicions getting out of hand?

The Pentagon is especially suspicious of Americans. Its Counterintelligence Field Activity (CIFA) employs a thousand people to monitor “threats” to the military within the United States. Between July 2004 and May 2005, CIFA’s “Operation TALON” recorded 1,519 “suspicious incidents,” many of them involving lawful political activity by domestic peace groups. In one instance, a Quaker meeting appears to have been infiltrated.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/01/ ... 8569.shtml

knotkranky wrote:To those who are not alarmed, or are fine with the decisions our government makes on all our behalves, why argue with people who want better decisions or a better administration. I mean, it's going your way just fine, right?


Checking Big Brother

Jan. 23, 2006
(CBS/AP)

(The American Prospect) This column was written by Christopher Pyle. CBS.

How many terrorists do you suppose we have in the United States today? Real terrorists, like Mohammed Atta, who led the attacks of September 11, as opposed to anti-war Quakers?

Seriously. What’s your best guess? Fifty? One hundred? More?

Before 9-11, the FBI’s watch list consisted of only 16 names. Today it contains 80,000. As of June 2005, the National Counterintelligence Center had amassed files on 190,000 individuals. Do these numbers strike you as reasonable, or are suspicions getting out of hand?

The Pentagon is especially suspicious of Americans. Its Counterintelligence Field Activity (CIFA) employs a thousand people to monitor “threats” to the military within the United States. Between July 2004 and May 2005, CIFA’s “Operation TALON” recorded 1,519 “suspicious incidents,” many of them involving lawful political activity by domestic peace groups. In one instance, a Quaker meeting appears to have been infiltrated.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/01/ ... 8569.shtml

So did the CIA have the names of the guys who flew the planes into the world trade center - there was like 8 of them - that would have been half of the 16 of the list

and they still couldn't stop the terrorist plot

So they had 8 of the 16 on the list and did nothing? That's bad

while i agree that the district court ruling re the NSA wiretapping is likely to be overturned by the court of appeals, doesn't this sorta confirm that bush isn't running some sort of fascist dictatorship that gets to do whatever it pleases?

dj superflat wrote:while i agree that the district court ruling re the NSA wiretapping is likely to be overturned by the court of appeals, doesn't this sorta confirm that bush isn't running some sort of fascist dictatorship that gets to do whatever it pleases?

No. How is it possible to take comfort in him not being a fascist dictator? It's a nonsensical lable.
.

why argue with people who want better decisions or a better administration.

You sort of answered your own question. I'm primarily arguing with your assertion that your way is necessarily "better" or that your choice of administration would be "better."

Is it going my way? Not completely. Like I said, I think we should be going ever further.... like with profiling. And in many ways, it's not going "my way." For example, we still have not done anything about the southern border.... which is absolutely outrageous, in my view.

subterFUSE wrote: Like I said, I think we should be going ever further.... like with profiling.

Oh good idea, lets get retarded and just go back in time





Sorry SubterFUSE, I think you are an intelligent person, I just can't believe you would propose something so ASS BACKWARDS.

udp wrote:

forge wrote:

stinky wrote: There isn't a historian in the world that would disagree with that statement. A majority of Berlin didn't even vote Hitler and the Nazi's into power. The Nazi's created an atmosphere of fear that dominated the rest of it's population. I whole heartedly agree with MBreq's on this statement. He's in fact, correct.

well, whether it's true or not, it was over 60 years ago and the far scarier thing is that an American administration has managed to do it now.

I've no fear of the Bush administration. They no doubt will transition the government to the next administration just as has been happening for the last 225+ years. What I do fear is that whether it be here in the US, or anywhere on Earth, is the fact that those who would destroy society are no longer nessecarily governments of other nations, but rather obscure grouping of people. Oklahoma City was carried out by a small faction (no, I don't believe we've caught all involved), so has essentially every terrorist act in the last 40 years. There will always be Evil people or pissed of people, that rather than using civil means to address their grievences they kill their "enemy". So the big question is: What to do with these people? You can't try them; they either make a mockery of the court (Saddam) or they blow up the court. Those of us who just try to live our lives, keep our children safe, and have a little fun along the way, don't know what to do with those who want to kill us for going to work at the World Trade Center, or the Federal Building in OK City. We're only gonna get hit so many times before we start saying to Hell with it all and start supporting massive retaliation. Those people who died didn't die because of one US policy or another, they died because a small group of evil men platted and carried out their act of terror.

lol.

Don't you see the irony in this statement? That everyone feels the same? What about those Iraqi civilains who have watched their children blown to shreds by US bombs? Perhaps the difference is, is that they DID die because a group of 'evil' men carried out an act of 'terror' or rather, they experienced such atrocity directly because of US foriegn policy.

You seem to have adopted all the rhetoric and idioms that the media are currently using; 'evil' and 'terror', these words have little association with reality. You must understand there is really no such thing as evil or good in this situation. There are extremists on both sides, both have a set agenda and both will use violence to impose their agenda on the world around them. Who is actually 'wrong' or 'right' or 'good' or 'evil' really depends on what side your on, or at least what you believe. In which case, the whole 'war on terror' is absolutely insane, there is no wrong or right and there will be no winners or losers in it, just more violence, death, suffering and destruction.

What the hell is the quote, "When they went after the <insert race> you were fine with that, it was for <insert cause>.
When they... <repeat the same line a few times>
When they went after you, who was there to help you?


It's the elitist viewpoint.

(no offense meant to subterfuse, you're cool, this is just political banter.)

subterFUSE wrote:

why argue with people who want better decisions or a better administration.

You sort of answered your own question. I'm primarily arguing with your assertion that your way is necessarily "better" or that your choice of administration would be "better."

Is it going my way? Not completely. Like I said, I think we should be going ever further.... like with profiling. And in many ways, it's not going "my way." For example, we still have not done anything about the southern border.... which is absolutely outrageous, in my view.

Contextually the rest of my statement is relevant. The sarcasm was a nod to our similarities and a knock at anyone fine with leaving the bush administration unchecked, which is unpatriotic by all accounts. You appear all too willing to subvert the constitution and the bill of rights more than GW.

Question: How can a white man understand anything about profiling in the U.S. ?

.

knotkranky wrote:
Question: How can a white man understand anything about profiling?

.

Go to a foreign country of non anglos...

I just can't believe you would propose something so ASS BACKWARDS.

It's not backwards. It's called being realistic. We're trying to stop terrorists. Terrorists tend to be Islamic males, between 17 & 40.


http://patriotpost.us/alexander/edition.asp?id=341



Does profiling work 100%? Of course not. There are always exceptions to everything in this world. But I think it is absolutely insane to ignore the simple fact that we're fighting Islamic terrorists. We have limited resources, and we should focus those limited resources we have towards finding the threats. I think we're doing a good job in many ways, and that's why we have not been attacked again yet. But I think there's still more we aren't doing, and should.

it doesn't matter how effective profiling would be if it takes away from the values that make us a suposedly free nation.


today it's "arab males between 17 and 40" it might be you tomorrow.



.lm.

M. Bréqs wrote:

glu wrote:The U.S. gives 6 billion a year for this.
I don't call it protection. I call it terrorism.

Well, I know what side of the bread my butter is on...

No Jew or Israeli wants to cut the head off of my Prime Minister.

No Jew or Israeli wants to destroy the Canadian economy.

No Jew or Israeli wants to blow up 10 aircraft in the sky (possibly with my family aboard).

No Jew or Israeli wants to force me to pay the Jizyah.

No Jew or Israeli wants to put my mom in a burkah.

No Jew or Israeli wants to stone my girlfriend and I because we live together outside of marriage.

No Jew or Israeli wants to hang my friend for being gay.

No Jew or Israeli wants to ban women from getting an education.

No Jew or Israeli wants me to be his Dhimmi and force me to submit to Sharia.

As far as I see it, Israel is the first and foremost defender of my freedom to not be subjected to a theocratic nightmare at the hands of some wacko religionists who have corrupted Islam. I'm glad Israel is well funded and well armed.

I'm with Mr. breqs here!!!
Life is definately a bitch in the ME.
The situation in lebanon is that they're trying to build their country , and over and over their country gets destroyed because it's being used by bigger and badder arab countrys as a playground to fight Israel without actually declairing war!,(Just last year they managed to get the Syrian Army out of there because the former PM was assasinated by Syria) I dont beleive Israel is an aggressor,They're pull out from lebanon was seen by hezbolah as a weakness...
But it's true... Israel gets its cues from the US.... they held them on a leash the whole time
Israel is a pretty productive country (ex: Waves plugins and Trance music) and I beleive both the people their and in Lebanon (except the crazy dudes) just want to live in PEACE and to raise their children ..... hezbolla though have a f&#$@ AK-47 as a FLAG and Iran says that Israel should be wiped off the map ...
anyway everybody should think about what their own country would do if their neighbour country was 'housing' an organization which was firing rockets from civilian neighborhoods targeting civillians... how long could you take it ? well, Israel has been 'taking' it from Day 1 and on all fronts !!!
and Lebanon... this country has been destroyed and rebuilt 6 times and counting...
Much blood has flowed in the middle east throughout history and I don't think there could be peace there in the near future...

AS BOB MARLEY SAID: "So much trouble in the world..."

wow... long post... been watching a lot of news lately had to get stuff off my chest...whooo

M. Bréqs wrote:

Meef Chaloin wrote: jesus
"germans allowed themselves to be dominated by an insane militant group" - one of the most foolish statements ive heard.

Why is that foolish? Do you honestly believe that EVERY single German between 1933 and 1945 was a Nazi? If so, you're the foolish one.

That society was controlled by a specific group bent on war. I see a paralell to Islam.

Yet you don't see a parallel to israel? Or the United States?

And your insinuation that Israel showed "restraint" is ludicrous. No offense.

M. Bréqs wrote:What I am saying is that Hizbolla are a militant force that has infiltrated and now partly controls Lebanon.

No, Hizbollah, with the exception of the rocket attacks into Israel, is a legitimate resistance group under international law.

And it's easy to post pictures of children posing as martyrs, but if you want to be fair you would post the pictures of young Israeli children decorating artillery shells and missiles before they are fired into populated civilian areas.

And maybe you should put things into perspective. Of-course it is a terrible tragedy when a young person blows him or herself up in a crowded cafe killing a bunch of civilians but is it not tragic when an American made Israeli helicopter or fighter jet levels an apartment block or refugee camp and kills a bunch of innocent people? PLO, Hamas, Hizbollah, PFLP, whatever, these people do not have the luxury of Abrams tanks, Apache Helicopter gun-ships, remote controlled armed drone planes, 105 mm howitzers, F-16 fighter planes, cluster bombs, or white phosphorus.

it does not mean that I think it is "justified" to blow up a crowded passenger bus, it is no more justified then it is to bomb a convoy of refugees after you have granted them passage. it means I have taken the time to consider the situation from both angles.

Why is it so hard to believe that Israel is maybe not fighting for its life, but is an aggressive criminal nation? You know, recognizing that or believing that does not automatically mean that you think hizbollah or whatever other resistance group are saints and it does not mean you are calling for the destruction of israel. it really doesn't, trust me. I know.

It means maybe you understand that the real reason people out there, in the third world, are so pissed off is not because they "hate freedom" (like my President is so quick to tell you) but maybe because they just want a little bit of freedom of their own. it means maybe you undertand the hypocritical, racist policies that are affecting people in the third world.

it means maybe you understand that there is a difference between the people and the policies, between the culture and the power center.

Trust me, it's just as ok to question the policies of the United States and Israel as it is to question the policies of iran or Syria. it doesn't mean you support "terrorism" or hate "the jews" it means you don't see the world in this bullshit black and white, epic struggle of good vs. evil that so many others do. it means you've taken the time to research not only the atrocities committed by "the enemy" that is printed in every American paper, but that you've also taken the time to investigate the atrocities committed by the "good guys" as well.

If more people would take the time to do that, rather than regurgitating what is fed to them by, forgive my rhetoric, the state/corporate sponsored propaganda machine( because that is exactly what it is, free press my ass), then maybe more people would begin to question these policies and then maybe we would see a real change.

Then maybe what the elite fears more than anything else would happen, "the great beast" (the people) would wake up from their sofas, couches, and easy chairs and not just call for, but demand a change.