Updates from Afghanistan

[smutek]

Some critics would argue that it is a waste of time, blood, lives and money because it has never been our place to "Westernize" Afghanistan (or any other country) or to decide what does or does not constitute "progress" for them.

One doesn't really have to step foot outside of their door or be very literate to understand this, on the other hand one can hold a PHD from SAIS and have travelled the world but still never quite get this simple moral concept.

Amazing really.

Best to you and yours. Be safe.

Your argument attacks a straw-man. It's not our place to westernize Afghanistan. But you're neglecting recent history with that criticism. We're here because we (the west) were attacked. That's our moral justification for being here; we came to root out our attackers. On arriving, we came across a country that was hyper-fucked by 25 years of war and economic stagnation from a theocratic dictatorship. We were morally obligated to help rebuild this place and prevent an alien ideology from again imposing itself on these people.

So here, we're NOT forcibly westernizing anybody, nor are we deciding what constitutes progress for them. Afghan visionaries have decided to adopt our way of doing things because it is obviously more efficient. We compel nobody to adhere to our value system (unlike the Taliban). We have offered a hand, the Afghans can choose to accept it or not. Those who adapt their way of doing things will prosper through the natural laws of economics. C'est la vie. The Taliban hung or shot those who did not accept their morality. That's the difference between us and them.

What you call a simple moral concept is typical of academic ignorance; all theory, no practical experience. It's easy to construct a mental model from the comfort of a university, or your mom's basement, or wherever one can find the sanctuaries of moral relativism. However, to accurately describe a system, objective field observation trumps ideological models almost every time.

You're talking about strawmen and recent history? Where exactly does "recent history" begin?

I seriously doubt you are even remotely capable of objectively answering this question, but let me ask you anyway: Is there even the slightest chance that "we" have ever done anything to make "them" want to attack "us"?

If anyone is neglecting recent history I would argue that it is people like you who seem to believe that recent history starts and ends on September 11th 2001. People like you who so conveniently forget our transgressions against others.

And you talk about the difference between "us and them"? We kidnap. We hold people without charge or trial. We murder. We bomb. We torture. We exploit. We invade. Maybe our methods are a little more high tech but really, how much different are you from them? You are a member of an occupying Army, so in all actuality you are worse.

I'm 37, married, gainfully employed and a home owner. I have, however, been around the block and I do have a "colorful" past. Different war than yours but I assure you I have some life experience that a lot of other people don't.

Does this count as objective field observation? Am I now qualified to discuss my moral relativism without your scorn? Does everything I've been through in my own life not count as practical experience in your book?

Do I need to roll out on my wife and my home, fly to Kandahar, grab a rifle, and help you westernize some muslims in order to formulate an opinion on what's right and wrong?

That seems to be what you are implying and it's ridiculous. The answer is no, of course not. Straw men indeed.

It really is a simple moral concept, one I honestly didn't expect you to understand so I have only myself to blame for wasting my time.

I almost feel sorry for you because I *think* you really believe our intent is good. Come on man, we're an imperial power for christ's sake. Well, when I say "we" I mean the United States. Your Canadian, but still, you know what I mean.

Maybe not though, maybe you're actually a little Brzezinksi at heart, playing a part in the grand chess game and all that.

Anyway, who cares. It's late here. Enjoy your war soldier.

[smartass303]

This Discussion is a waste of bandwith in your camp in afgahnistan and it clutters up our beloved forum, please stop it.

thank you,

303

[M. Bréqs]

So let me get this straight Smutek; Because you've had a gun in your face, you "understand" that the changes developing in Pashtun society are for the worse? I think again you're not arguing against my points, but rather setting up arguments that are not pertinent.

Yes, I have had friends die. A rocket with a 25m lethal blast radius hit about 80m from my tent while I was sleeping. I haven't had bullets shot at me, but if you consider my role in this war, I have blood on my hands. Using the most liberal definition of responsibility for loss of life, though I have pulled no trigger myself, I've contributed to the deaths of at least two hundred people so far, all Taliban; and I've probably contributed to the prevention of ten times that number, though I will never know for certain (it's impossible to prove a negative). I sleep very well at night by the way.

I don't have any reason to doubt that you have been in the shit that you claim; but that doesn't make you any more knowledgeable about what's going on over here in Central Asia. Your simple moral concept is just that; a concept. By the way, I don't think we're actually in direct violation of what you claim to be a moral concept really...

Why?

Because you are assuming that we are here as unwelcome invaders. Your assumption is wrong, we are not. We attacked the Taliban, we didn't attack Afghanistan. The UN sanctioned our mission. NATO sanctioned our mission. The Afghan government requested our presence. The population is behind us and doesn't want us to leave. Only the dogmatic and ignorant (the Taliban here, the anti-war left back home) oppose our presence.

That's the point.

[M. Bréqs]

This Discussion is a waste of bandwith in your camp in afgahnistan and it clutters up our beloved forum, please stop it.

thank you,

303

No.

[j2j]

This Discussion is a waste of bandwith in your camp in afgahnistan and it clutters up our beloved forum, please stop it.

thank you,

303

I am not going to bother to read the 8 pages of bullshit you and others started but let me give you an insight into reality.


An artists music, is about their life. Recently... An inspired Soldier has sold millions of copies... Sadly I can't really get his name right now, but he is definitely handsome, from the UK, and sold millions!!

Least to say. To read about other peoples lives on a music forum is just that. LIfE!! And for the other political guys spewing various crap I didn't bother to read... I offer this option... Stop judging what you do not understand, just because on some level you think it is cool.

I am definitely not a PRO WaR person. I think violence and hatred among the human race is the darkest aspect of reality on planet earth.

However, get over it.

What we don't need on music forums is penis pill adds. other various spam.

But threads about our life and experiences?
what the fuck do you think music is anyway?

There is nothing more boring than the music of somebody with nothing positive to say, and nothing interesting to talk about!!!



But seriously M. Breqs, I wish you the best. Be safe. Love Always, Try and smile...

cheers.

[smutek]

So let me get this straight Smutek; Because you've had a gun in your face, you "understand" that the changes developing in Pashtun society are for the worse? I think again you're not arguing against my points, but rather setting up arguments that are not pertinent.

I edited my post if you care to re-read, but yes, let me set you straight.

What I've been through has fuck all to do with the "positive changes" that are sweeping Pashtun society as a result of being occupied by foreign armies.

What it is is a response to your statement

"What you call a simple moral concept is typical of academic ignorance; all theory, no practical experience. It's easy to construct a mental model from the comfort of a university, or your mom's basement, or wherever one can find the sanctuaries of moral relativism. However, to accurately describe a system, objective field observation trumps ideological models almost every time."

So in turn I relate to you that I have had my own "objective field observation" in my own fucked up past and that my "ideological model", Ie. my simple moral concept, was not constructed from the comfort of a university or my Mom's basement but is based on 37 years experience and growth as a result of that experience.

So taken in the context of your statement yes it is pertinent. What is not pertinent is to suggest that I am unable to formulate a relevant opinion because I am not sitting in a tent with you in Kandahar stroking my M-16.

So, what you right off as being "typical of academic ignorance" to me is really common sense based on my own closely held morals and beliefs.

[smutek]

Look, regardless of how pissed off I get I want you to know that I do wish you the best.

No, I don't have "on the ground experience" but by that argument wouldn't it hold true that since you are not actually making policy, but are yourself an instrument of policy, that all of the ideas you have of the good you are doing are just that, ideas?

Personally, I'm not just some idealistic hippy reincarnated from the 60's, spewing on about peace and love with the same blissful ignorance as the crowd that spews on about bombing iran.. I'm idealistic yes, but I'm also a bit of a pragmatist and a nationalist as well to be honest. First and foremost I think it is wrong, morally. I also think this is just another in a chain of bad decisions for my country, for Western culture, and ultimately for the entire world.

I know that when President Bush comes on TV and tells me that we are spreading Democracy and freedom to the Afghanistan and Iraq that what he really is saying is that (to quote Brezezinski) "A power that dominates Eurasia would control two of the world's three most advanced and economically productive regions. A mere glance at the map also suggests that control over Eurasia would almost automatically entail Africa's subordination, rendering the Western Hemisphere and Oceania geopolitically peripheral to the world's central continent".

Not that Brezezinski is the be all end all of American foreign policy, but I do understand a bit of this geo-strategy and I do know a little bit of history. Yes, my ideas may be ideas, but so are yours. The bottom line, and what really irritated me, is that for you to suggest that I am unable to formulate an objective opinion since I am not there on the ground is ultimately counter productive and seems designed to shut down any critical thought on the issue.

[j2j]

but are yourself an instrument of policy,

Oh its so easy to call him an instrument of policy isn't it.

Too fucking easy. but in all reality, You and I , and most of the world are pawns and statistics.

Its been that way for centuries. Not much has changed. Should we have invaded Iraq? Probably not. Should we have even gone to the middle east at all?

Um, I think really there is just so much more in play than us commoners will ever know about. Truthfully all governments are corrupt. that is the nature of government. That is why anarchy as an idea looks great on paper.

The USA economy is totally fucked. We are no more safer from nuclear attack or major terrorist activity than the day before the Twin Towers got bombed...

so has anything changed for the better? Its possible that the people of Iraq are more free now than they were under Sadam. Sadly, they seem to want to use that freedom to kill each other a little more quickly.

What else? Yeah, apparently the world hates america... Which is complete bullshit. China rips off so much of the economies of Euro and American Continents, and Europe has a vast history of brutality, and darkness.

The human race is filled with hypocrites. LIke for example. calling this guy an instrument of policy...

Let me ask you this home-boy. Have you managed to pay any taxes here in america? Here in the USA. Have you paid just 10 cents state or federal tax on anything?

Well, wtf? I guess you are just part of the system, supporting our government policy. You silly pawn you!!!


That is the problem with this world. Its why so much music is around, and most of it is so boring, and sounds exactly the same.

People have not got true imagination. Mostly they have hate, judgement, spite, greed, hopelessness. and a deep void, they try to fill with sex and drugs?

so am I better, am i any different?

well, I dont hate. and I try not judge...

but am i greedy... maybe, I wouldnt turn down 10 million dollars that is for sure.

do I get hopeless.. you bet!!!

have I had any meaningless sex or drugs lately? why?


R U hot?

[pepezabala]

Merry x-mas boys!!

I also probably have no right to criticize M.Breqs because I am a pacifist hippie-kid that believes that the military-industrial-complex is the main evil force in world politics. As it always had been.

One of the main reasons to be against the western occupation in Afghanistan is that the US has not the moral integrity to intervene. Since 1979 the US has been funding war in Afghanistan, most of the time supporting massively the Taliban, supplying them with over a billion of US$ in money and weapons, and since a couple of years fighting against them. I strongly believe that the motivation to occupy and "civilize" afghanistan does not have so much humanitarian background, but mainly geo-strategic reasons. The propagando on both sides of this conflict is making up a "clash of civilizations" in order to have people support the war. A war that is fought to gain access to ressources and trade of oil and opium. The US is using their allied partners and the UN to legally and morally strengthen their position.

I still have to give big respect to all the people that want to help and do humanitarian work in Afghanistan, including people working for the occupying forces.

But still I would like them to think about their role in this global wargame.

[Emissary]

LONG LIVE THE REPTOIDS AND THE BILDERBURGS!!

[smartass303]

This Discussion is a waste of bandwith in your camp in afgahnistan and it clutters up our beloved forum, please stop it.

thank you,

303

No.

Yes, thanks again. If you have a huge Internet Connection in your Camp good for you, you can watch pr0n all the time, lucky Bastard! Oh yeah, no one (serious) in a *civilized* music forum cares a bout your views on the world soldier.
Come home safely,
303

[noisetonepause]

Cock!

[forge]

Cock!

[Emissary]

This Discussion is a waste of bandwith in your camp in afgahnistan and it clutters up our beloved forum, please stop it.

thank you,

303

No.

Yes, thanks again. If you have a huge Internet Connection in your Camp good for you, you can watch pr0n all the time, lucky Bastard! Oh yeah, no one (serious) in a *civilized* music forum cares a bout your views on the world soldier.
Come home safely,
303

ULTRA COCK!!!

[M. Bréqs]

Forge has kindly provided a clever little means of making posts go away that you don't like.

So, for those of you who are so fragile and undisciplined that you can't stop yourself from clicking on a topic you know is going to make your eyes well up with tears and cause you to pee in your pants with impotent rage, maybe you could check out the following:

http://www.ableton.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=69853

For the rest of us with an open mind, a taste for spirited debate, a natural curiosity or even just a laissez-faire attitude to the forums here, thanks for keeping this thread a little more interesting by contributing to the discussion here!

L8er