Logic, or save up for waves?

[esky]

@ Tarekith...thanks for your detailed test, that was very interesting...

fool wrote

A matter of organizing. How do you organize it, so you don't have to run around pulling tons of faders all the time? Thats the question

You are right, there are many faders in the subgroup department and auxilary knobs around. But this is no big deal as i'm composing in the session view (like a in a proper application... ) and the clip view is more or less a mixer page.
The subgroups are strechted to maximum, the FX Returns are smaller channels to have a optical sign. Not very spectacular, but it helps. Anyway if you work like this or in other way, if you change a certain colour you often have to work on the whole picture again. Thats the same for all host workstations...

[Nogi]

Or even, just make three stems from your mixed Live composition, kicks+bass, harmonic elemnts, everything else. Import those three stems to your DAW and they will immediatley sound bigger, and with more possiblity for amplitude boost WHILE retaining relative dynamics

If I understand your point (and I'm quite sure I don't ), this does not appear to be the case. For clarity, could we hear the hypothesis again?

Back to the OP, I demo'd the Sonnox Dynamics and EQ plugs extensively recently and it was a very rewarding experience. Extraordinarily resource heavy but brilliant. Check 'em.

[thefool]

@ Tarekith...thanks for your detailed test, that was very interesting...

fool wrote

A matter of organizing. How do you organize it, so you don't have to run around pulling tons of faders all the time? Thats the question

You are right, there are many faders in the subgroup department and auxilary knobs around. But this is no big deal as i'm composing in the session view (like a in a proper application... ) and the clip view is more or less a mixer page.
The subgroups are strechted to maximum, the FX Returns are smaller channels to have a optical sign. Not very spectacular, but it helps. Anyway if you work like this or in other way, if you change a certain colour you often have to work on the whole picture again. Thats the same for all host workstations...

Mh but i talk about moving a bunch of faders the excact same amount

but it doesn;t quite apply to my statements, because the second you import these multis from Live in to a DAW, you immediatly have more headroom and can attain more LOUDNESS for your master bounce

Yet again i'd like to say that i am still wondering of this. I am pretty sure i set the knobs in fl and all faders to 0db, exactly like in live, but in fl it peaked at -4. In SONAR i gave it a quick go and got much closer to 0. (-0.3 or so i thinkg).

I'd have to look more into it when i get home (and make sure they are set at the same settings again and such.)

(I did write this in an edit at the original post btw.)

About plugins, a german bass player who has his own studio (and live of it) told me that he found UAC in general to be high quality for a good price. Besides UAC he recommended Sonnox and actually also Voxengo (being the cheapest of the brands yes, but don't go around them just because they don't cost the same. Price isn't allways equal to quality, though often).

[esky]

but i talk about moving a bunch of faders the excact same amount

Yeah, here i quit, you mean selecting faders and moving them all together to a certain value. But isn't this subgrouping? i don't know, i'm outa here now.
Jesso, stick with Live 7 it's good enough. Other DAW's aren't better. And they're just tools...

[Tarekith]

I'm having trouble understanding a few of he posts here, but if you reread my tests, I lowered all faders to -6dB when doing this. Is that what you mean?

Forge -

I'm really not sure it's worth discussing further at this point, I'm not surprised they didn't step in and say something. The differences shown in the testing I did are so incredibly close to the noise floor, it could have been any number of small mathmatical differences in the summing engines causing it. I admit, I don't care to learn the details of the math involved in this kind of stuff anymore, this kind of testing is about as far as I take it.

When we're talking about -90dB or more, I think the differences are almost neglible for our purposes. The one thing this test did not show was which DAW gave a theorectically more 'pure' signal, if there is such a thing. It only showed that there is a very tiny difference between Logic and Live, not which app is contributing to that difference more. Or that one is better than the other.

Again, I have the link in my post so people can DL the files and listen to them on their own. I REALLY do not think there is any audible difference between the Live and Logic render.

[morerecords]

Just for the record I have never commented once on Live vs. Logic (master) render, I have never even used it...I'm positive there are no audible deifferences, and never once even questioned that, in fact I've always thought that was a pretty absurd claim to hear.

I am going to have to bow out at this point, I am just too busy for this particualr debate, because it has gone quite deeper than I anticipated, and I barely got any work done yesterday,gotta make that paper

Any, pleaseure to meet the ableton forum community, I'm sure i'll be around other threads, but I have to make some tunes today, it's too easy to get caught up in distractions between TV,women,forums,booze,herb etc...

-MR

[miqueas1]

Whats all the fuzz about trouble mixing in live?

The only thing i find annoying is not being able to group the faders and move a selection down by eg 1db.

Maybe its just me


(and btw i got from morerecords that he said there might be some sort of compressor that performed some compression to eg the low ends, which probably helps starters not muddying and cluttering the thing so easily. Nothing about summing. But again i might have misinterpreted the whole thing, thats why i write it in paranthesis! But eventually they COULD have done it, and it would be a damn smart trick too.)

I hear you on that one!

I am sure you already know to use alot of Sub-Bussing and the Utility tool... (like I said i am sure you know.. but just in case not.. LOL)...

[miqueas1]

Whats all the fuzz about trouble mixing in live?

The only thing i find annoying is not being able to group the faders and move a selection down by eg 1db.

Maybe its just me


(and btw i got from morerecords that he said there might be some sort of compressor that performed some compression to eg the low ends, which probably helps starters not muddying and cluttering the thing so easily. Nothing about summing. But again i might have misinterpreted the whole thing, thats why i write it in paranthesis! But eventually they COULD have done it, and it would be a damn smart trick too.)

I hear you on that one!

I am sure you already know to use alot of Sub-Bussing and the Utility tool... (like I said i am sure you know.. but just in case not.. LOL)...

[thuzen4bWbQnXr]

.

[Tarekith]

Stop putting compressors on each track would be my first suggestion for getting a better mix

http://tarekith.com/assets/mixdowns.html

[miqueas1]

After many times of saying I would never go Mac and never go Logic... well I sold out!!! And I think it is the best thing I did... everything already sounds better to me!!!

Now.. I write tracks in Ableton... and do much of the arrangment... get the sounds I want... and then I import that project into Logic now.... I save my presets.... and then import the midi and audio into Logic.... (I am not using alot of Ableton instruments right now... because you have to either save those files as audio loops... or run them via Rewire to use some of Albeton's FX.. (I sure as hell wish Ableton Plugins were VST that could be used with other Hosts!!! If that were the case... I would use a majority of their plugins...

I can say... I love Logic now... 2 months running and it is just wonderful! Also...

I have learned... when I write a track in Ableton.... and import it.. I put nothing on the Master channel... I rarely even work with the EQ in Ableton and any compression (I will do that in Logic.... )....

You can set up a compresson on the master track in Logic... as a go by.. and mix in that compressor setting rather than putting one on after the mix down..

I learned everything I need to know for mastering tips in Logic... using the Brand new Mac Pro Video of Dance music mastering... it was the best 50 bucks I ever spent... and made it very easy to understand how to get the most out of Logic without using 3rd party plug ins... Which I don't use right now... because.. sorry.. but I am not paying more for a compressor than I pay for Logic Pro... PERIOD!

I do know you can get the sound you need out of Live.. if you know what you are doing... but always rememeber.... GO BY YOUR EARS! Not by what you see.. many people are soo scared to "clip audio" in tracks.... the main thing I worry about is the master.. .

If you switch check out that tutorial.... it is amazing..

also rather than importing tracks from ableton in Logic... (like the midi and saving presets and all which can be a pain) you can also just do the entire song in Ableton... and then bounce the stems down... import the stems into Logic.. and then do some mastering on that end..

I just found I get more inspired by actually importing into Logic rather than just working with Audio stems!


Hope this helps!

Micah

[miqueas1]

After many times of saying I would never go Mac and never go Logic... well I sold out!!! And I think it is the best thing I did... everything already sounds better to me!!!

Now.. I write tracks in Ableton... and do much of the arrangment... get the sounds I want... and then I import that project into Logic now.... I save my presets.... and then import the midi and audio into Logic.... (I am not using alot of Ableton instruments right now... because you have to either save those files as audio loops... or run them via Rewire to use some of Albeton's FX.. (I sure as hell wish Ableton Plugins were VST that could be used with other Hosts!!! If that were the case... I would use a majority of their plugins...

I can say... I love Logic now... 2 months running and it is just wonderful! Also...

I have learned... when I write a track in Ableton.... and import it.. I put nothing on the Master channel... I rarely even work with the EQ in Ableton and any compression (I will do that in Logic.... )....

You can set up a compresson on the master track in Logic... as a go by.. and mix in that compressor setting rather than putting one on after the mix down..

I learned everything I need to know for mastering tips in Logic... using the Brand new Mac Pro Video of Dance music mastering... it was the best 50 bucks I ever spent... and made it very easy to understand how to get the most out of Logic without using 3rd party plug ins... Which I don't use right now... because.. sorry.. but I am not paying more for a compressor than I pay for Logic Pro... PERIOD!

I do know you can get the sound you need out of Live.. if you know what you are doing... but always rememeber.... GO BY YOUR EARS! Not by what you see.. many people are soo scared to "clip audio" in tracks.... the main thing I worry about is the master.. .

If you switch check out that tutorial.... it is amazing..

also rather than importing tracks from ableton in Logic... (like the midi and saving presets and all which can be a pain) you can also just do the entire song in Ableton... and then bounce the stems down... import the stems into Logic.. and then do some mastering on that end..

I just found I get more inspired by actually importing into Logic rather than just working with Audio stems!


Hope this helps!

Micah