ot... Watch her first interview - Palin w/ Charley Gibson

deva · Post by **deva** » Sun Sep 14, 2008 11:32 pm

knotkranky wrote: No, I'm saying "Obama" can, will and does unite people. I have little respect for Rice, Thomas, Keyes and Powell for there records and affiliation with the worst of U.S. politics. And yes, they are Republicans. Go figure.

You simply have to know this about my view. I am thrilled that It has somehow fallen together that the man who will keep us out of more McBush years and a healing step away from the last 8, Is also a man of principles backed up with a stellar community service record for helping the disenfranchised and unfortunate. He's young, progressive, in-touch and two weeks younger than me. I am also grateful that this "particular" black man who validates many of my views will be the most powerful and most influential man in the world. It already has been a good thing for many millions and is a very real and enormous history making milestone that I plan to have a hand in.

It's not up for debate and if you can't feel me on that, then that will have to do.

Obama does not have a stellar record at all in helping the disenfranchised and unfortunate. He has consistently supported big corporate business over the needs and interests of people. His vote to grant immunity to the big telecoms for their illegal spying on the people of this country was a stab in the back. That was a terrible betrayal of the people and the Constitution.

How is Obama progressive? What has happened to the political discourse that a moderate right winger is called progressive? When has being pro death penalty (and seeking to expand its use) been a progressive value? When has expanding the military been a progressive value? Obama opposes a single payer universal health care program. That is certainly not progressive. Obama voting for CAFA which makes it harder for citizens to collectively take action against corporate predation is certainly not progressive.

If you want to say that you think Obama will be better than McCain, go ahead, but trumpeting him as a progressive? That is just wishful thinking and patently not true.

deva · Post by **deva** » Sun Sep 14, 2008 11:36 pm

interesting tidbit I came across on a blog... Don't know where it is sourced from. I have been saying for a while that I think Obama has a better chance of pushing the draft through than McCain.

In remarks that clearly pointed toward the restoration of the military draft under an Obama administration, the Democratic candidate said Thursday night that his job as president would include demanding that the American people recognize an "obligation" for military service. "If we are going into war, then all of us go, not just some," Senator Barack Obama declared.

Obama’s comments came as he and his Republican opponent, Senator John McCain, took part in a forum on national service at Columbia University in New York City. Earlier in the day, both candidates joined in a memorial service at the site of the World Trade Center, commemorating the victims of the 9/11 terrorist attacks.

Tone Deft · Post by **Tone Deft** » Sun Sep 14, 2008 11:57 pm

who's saying Obama is a progressive? he's not saying he is, he's not misrepresenting your party.

on the Patriot Act signing... Obama has said it wasn't all he wanted, he had his own stripped down version he wanted to pass. you need to read up on that if you're going to rant about it. there are statements on his web site.

at Columbia he did not say he wanted to instate a draft. why would we pull out of Iraq and instate a draft? did you watch the interviews? they're on youtube.

you're searching for facts you want to find and not the context of his statements.

not saying your ideas are wrong, just your criticism of Obama is clearly someone who doesn't like him or 'the system', so you're searching for facts to support that.

name a single president in the past that has held up to your standards.

smutek · Post by **smutek** » Mon Sep 15, 2008 12:46 am

deva wrote:...but trumpeting him as a progressive? That is just wishful thinking and patently not true.

Tone Deft wrote:
who's saying Obama is a progressive?

knotkranky wrote:
....He's young, progressive, .....

Tone Deft · Post by **Tone Deft** » Mon Sep 15, 2008 12:51 am

kewl. I think KK gets the point.

ask people what a progressive is, a vast majority of people couldn't tell you what you wanted to hear.

politics on teh Ableton,
very dangerous.

knotkranky · Post by **knotkranky** » Mon Sep 15, 2008 12:58 am

deva wrote:interesting tidbit I came across on a blog... Don't know where it is sourced from. I have been saying for a while that I think Obama has a better chance of pushing the draft through than McCain.

In remarks that clearly pointed toward the restoration of the military draft under an Obama administration, the Democratic candidate said Thursday night that his job as president would include demanding that the American people recognize an "obligation" for military service. "If we are going into war, then all of us go, not just some," Senator Barack Obama declared.

Obama’s comments came as he and his Republican opponent, Senator John McCain, took part in a forum on national service at Columbia University in New York City. Earlier in the day, both candidates joined in a memorial service at the site of the World Trade Center, commemorating the victims of the 9/11 terrorist attacks.

@ smutek. Dude, yer a better listener than that. "Is progressive" and "is a progressive" are a little different yes? Can we avoid the semantics bs please.

Regardless, -

U.S. progressivism historically advocates the advancement of workers' rights and social justice.

deva, you merely point and criticize. "This sucks, that sucks" And everybody's got to debate with you from that position.

Time for your actionable side of the debates. Argue with your vision of progress, not your hindsight.

Tone Deft · Post by **Tone Deft** » Mon Sep 15, 2008 1:03 am

I'd like to read that as well, not to debate but to learn.

knotkranky · Post by **knotkranky** » Mon Sep 15, 2008 1:07 am

Right, otherwise it's a bore and of little value.

smutek · Post by **smutek** » Mon Sep 15, 2008 1:18 am

knotkranky wrote:
@ smutek. Dude, yer a better listener than that. "Is progressive" and "is a progressive" are a little different yes? Can we avoid the semantics bs please.

No semantics bs intended on this end, I assure you.

knotkranky · Post by **knotkranky** » Mon Sep 15, 2008 1:26 am

smutek wrote:
knotkranky wrote:
@ smutek. Dude, yer a better listener than that. "Is progressive" and "is a progressive" are a little different yes? Can we avoid the semantics bs please.

No semantics bs intended on this end, I assure you.

Machinesworking · Post by **Machinesworking** » Mon Sep 15, 2008 4:33 am

knotkranky wrote: deva, you merely point and criticize. "This sucks, that sucks" And everybody's got to debate with you from that position.

Time for your actionable side of the debates. Argue with your vision of progress, not your hindsight.

deva wrote: Within 10 years there will be a strong secessionist movement here. In 20 years we will no longer be part of the U.S.

Sounds like a vision of progress to me.

Why is it that every time you moderates hear a voice from the far left you become even more pedantic and authoritarian acting than towards right wing people? Just a little tip, stop with the personal attacks, it's not doing you any good, no person old enough to sign in to the forums wants paternalistic pandering from you. Even more fun, I don't give a fuck if you attack me at this point, I'm pretty immune to it, but deva hasn't said one nasty thing towards you knotkranky, yet this it #2 in personal attacks and avoiding talking to him about the issues he brings up.

The only hope I have for you and Tone as far as this need to belittle the opponent in a debate is that it's a defense against your own doubts about the democrats, and one day you'll wise up and realize that they're serving you the same shit sandwich the republicans are, just on rye bread.

In some ways you would shudder to hear my thought on the matter of "progress". We need near economic ruin, total financial chaos, and loss of standing world wide, none of this embarrassing neocon action, but total humiliation. Otherwise we're all too fucking happy being status quo, not rocking the boat too hard and voting again and again and again and again for the lessor of two evils.

I'm pretty sure we could solve our energy problem in one fell swoop by installing 5-10% of the deserts in the states with solar panels. This would easily provide enough electricity for our cars as well. Then gas could be regulated to HUGE vehicles etc. But hey, there's a whole power structure in place that doesn't want that. As it stands we're chasing oil, and pissing a lot of people off because of that. Obama doesn't promise much in this regard, it's far too little IMO, and you of course are free to disagree, just don't tell me or others that we aren't schooled enough etc. just makes you sound like the assholes that make this world so difficult in the first place to enjoy.

rbro · Post by **rbro** » Mon Sep 15, 2008 5:12 am

Charlie!!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pxv4uUQ5Smw

deva · Post by **deva** » Mon Sep 15, 2008 5:34 am

Tone Deft wrote:who's saying Obama is a progressive?

knotkranky said "He's young, progressive..."

Obama is not progressive and I outlined a bunch of specific issues to show why.

deva · Post by **deva** » Mon Sep 15, 2008 5:39 am

Tone Deft wrote: on the Patriot Act signing... Obama has said it wasn't all he wanted, he had his own stripped down version he wanted to pass. you need to read up on that if you're going to rant about it. there are statements on his web site.

I don't care what he said. I care what he did. He stabbed people and their civil liberties in the back after saying he would not vote for telecom immunity. That was a critical and historic moment to defend civil liberties and he sided with corporate power instead.

deva · Post by **deva** » Mon Sep 15, 2008 5:50 am

Tone Deft wrote: at Columbia he did not say he wanted to instate a draft. why would we pull out of Iraq and instate a draft? did you watch the interviews? they're on youtube.

I did not claim he says he wants a draft. He does say people have an obligation to military service, that we need more people in the military, that everyone needs to share the burden in wartime. He talks about national service.

That sort of talk borders on the edge of a draft, or mandatory national service, if you want to call it that. He says we need 100,000 additional soldiers. If they do not volunteer how is he going to get them?

He talked about the need for more civil service work overseas in places like Afghanistan to take the pressure off of the military. That is just liberal talk for pulling more people into support roles for an unethical war.