Ableton Forum

Tone Deft wrote:

particle wrote:i do not know who dawkins is but i think that everyone should create their own religion. i dont think that religion has to involve some kind of god. i think that atheism is just as dogmatic as christianity becasue it is disbelief and disbelief is just as closed off as belief. the fact is we dont know how existance exists. obviously, the earth was not created 10,000 years ago, but if you think about what life is, one of the conclusions you might come to is that life is the universe looking in the mirror. that makes sense becasue we are made from the universe. if life is a way for the universe to observe its self, then maybe evolution is the process of some kind of awareness that is binded to the universe or maybe even the creator of the universe manifesting its self into its own creation. that would fit in with why so much life happens in fractal patterns as well and why the universe appears to be infinite. also, the subatomic particles that electrons are made from are rapidly teleproting in and out of this dimention as far as we know. where do they go? maybe that has something to do with seemingly psychic intuition.....im not saying i believe this but the possibilities would appear to me limitless when we are still half evolved apes that cant comprehend how anything is here in the first place...but yeah..christianity is stupid and full of shit...it wasnt even invented untill 200 years after jesus died.

Agnostics are atheists without balls. Big, meaty, saucy, balls covered in a
tangy tomato sauce.


Please cut it out with the HUGE pics, it makes the thread really annoying to read.

if you mean dogma when you say balls, i guess i would have to agree with you. atheism involves dogma, which makes it another jail cell tunnel reality. your thinking becomes limited when you cut out possibilities. atheism is naive becasue its like saying that humans are capable of understanding everything and we obviously are not capable of understanding everything, we havent even been to the stars yet, we are just apes that can build stuff.

particle wrote:

Tone Deft wrote:

particle wrote:i do not know who dawkins is but i think that everyone should create their own religion. i dont think that religion has to involve some kind of god. i think that atheism is just as dogmatic as christianity becasue it is disbelief and disbelief is just as closed off as belief. the fact is we dont know how existance exists. obviously, the earth was not created 10,000 years ago, but if you think about what life is, one of the conclusions you might come to is that life is the universe looking in the mirror. that makes sense becasue we are made from the universe. if life is a way for the universe to observe its self, then maybe evolution is the process of some kind of awareness that is binded to the universe or maybe even the creator of the universe manifesting its self into its own creation. that would fit in with why so much life happens in fractal patterns as well and why the universe appears to be infinite. also, the subatomic particles that electrons are made from are rapidly teleproting in and out of this dimention as far as we know. where do they go? maybe that has something to do with seemingly psychic intuition.....im not saying i believe this but the possibilities would appear to me limitless when we are still half evolved apes that cant comprehend how anything is here in the first place...but yeah..christianity is stupid and full of shit...it wasnt even invented untill 200 years after jesus died.

Agnostics are atheists without balls. Big, meaty, saucy, balls covered in a
tangy tomato sauce.


Please cut it out with the HUGE pics, it makes the thread really annoying to read.

if you mean dogma when you say balls, i guess i would have to agree with you. atheism involves dogma, which makes it another jail cell tunnel reality. your thinking becomes limited when you cut out possibilities. atheism is naive becasue its like saying that humans are capable of understanding everything and we obviously are not capable of understanding everything, we havent even been to the stars yet, we are just apes that can build stuff.

OK. Long story short, I've been HIGHLY active in churches, done missionary
work, witnessed even when it was uncomfortable, a sermon, eulogies,
accoladed, sang in choirs, joined youth groups from elementary school to college,
you're being arrogant and nieve about the audience here.

1. There's no room for being judgmental about anyone's intelligence here,
jew or gentile, catholic or protestant, atheist or agnostic, that's the wrong
language to use. You lost all cred with that. You're overlooking
who you're addressing or what we've been through, grow up.

2. You said "athiests believe that there is no
creator to the universe. if you beleive something
You don't have your definitions right, agnostics aren't sure what they believe.
Take a stance, know what you believe in.

3. Then you say "accurate guess." That's a contradiction, like I said,
agnostics are atheists without balls. In your case, you're making a half
assed guess at the truth, stop guessing and grow some balls.
Do you believe in god or not? There is no accurate guessing in those matters,
to believe so is a slap in the face to both TRUE FAITH IN GOD or true faith
that there is no god. You're insulting, this isn't voting in a goddamn
election, this is your soul, what do you believe?

Please read the thread and get up to speed. You're a god believer and too nieve to notice it.

if you mean dogma when you say balls, i guess i would have to agree with you. atheism involves dogma, which makes it another jail cell tunnel reality. your thinking becomes limited when you cut out possibilities. atheism is naive becasue its like saying that humans are capable of understanding everything and we obviously are not capable of understanding everything, we havent even been to the stars yet, we are just apes that can build stuff.

Christian dogma is legendary, and highly destructive, give me a break...
And I only say christian because the jews/muslims/buddhists haven't
crossed my path with their religion nearly as much.

I never said I understand everything, that's a really lame statement. On
the other hand, religion DOES say they understand everything, everything is
due to god, god is the explanation for the unexplainable.



Someone else deal with this kid...

particle - this thread is separate from the other threads, I'm still totally
interested in your music, Live and all that, all banter in this thread aside,
seriously.

Everybody can`t stop discussing about this sooo yesterday topic.

As Nietzsche stated: "Gott ist tot"

period

smartass303 wrote:Everybody can`t stop discussing about this sooo yesterday topic.

As Nietzsche stated: "Gott ist tot"

period

worse, he never existed in the first place.

I'm still disappointed that no religious people have discussed their interactions with satan. Can you believe in god but not satan?

So, what degree of evidence would satisfy the atheists here?
If there was a study of people whose arms had been amputated that prayed for God to grow them new arms, and they grew new arms, would that be enough? Or would you begin looking for a 'rational' explanation for it that didn't involve God?

Two separate people very close to me had serious meth addiction going on, and at the lowest point of that mess had experiences with Jesus Christ wherein their addiction was completely removed from them with a total absence of the usual intense withdrawal symptoms. Must be some kind of built-in survival mechanism where the body can somehow instantly free itself of chemical dependency, right?

...

I have a question about Occam's Razor. It seems kind of subjective to me....and I mean that as a sincere question that I've had for awhile. What I mean is...Occam's Razor was invoked in this thread a few times in the context of science's explanation for some things being more simple than religion's explanation, and therefore probably true. Well....who's to say whats the 'simpler' explanation?

Who wants to push for another 70 pages?

err, ok, i'm in

smartass303 wrote:
Everybody can`t stop discussing about this sooo yesterday topic.

As Nietzsche stated: "Gott ist tot"

period


worse, he never existed in the first place.

Nope, disagree! God is very alive and exists! I should know..

all a belief does is help you build your own personal metaphorical handlebar to hold onto while riding the roller coaster of reality. beliefs are just there to help you find comfort in existance. for example you are a firm believer that agnostics have no balls, becasue it fits your reality tunnel in a way that makes sense. im not trying to be a dick..im just saying that everyone percieves reality different than the next person so what is the point in building a firm belief system? all it ends up doing is setting off a chain of disagreements that ends up being an agro argument. sorry...i just finshed reading prometheus rising (a mind bending reality tunnel smashing book) last night so i cant help it if what im saying is pissing you off. that was not my intention. you should check out rober anton wilson...that guy will fuck with your head

ethios4 wrote: Two separate people very close to me had serious meth addiction going on, and at the lowest point of that mess had experiences with Jesus Christ wherein their addiction was completely removed from them with a total absence of the usual intense withdrawal symptoms. Must be some kind of built-in survival mechanism where the body can somehow instantly free itself of chemical dependency, right?

You're actually not that far off. In addition to the physical dependency drug addiction can often be due to serious psychological issues involving self image and the avoidance of very traumatic experiences from the past. Guilt and self loathing are often part of this. The message of Jesus according to Christians is that he died for our sins and is there to carry us so that we can put our fate in his hands. Once someone is able to take that off of their shoulders and metaphorically place it in the lap of someone else then they become able to find strength without the guilt and shame that kept them down before. At this point the mind can overcome the difficulties of the very real chemical dependency. So yes I believe it is a sort of survival mechanism.

Simply put. A person has a very self destructive path that will lead inevitably to death. They know this deep down. They are given the opportunity to unload all of the baggage of self loathing, shame, and fear onto a person/belief system which in turn allows them to find strength and the want to live strong. It seems like a logical survival mechanism to me. That has always been part of the human experience.

particle: when you say "mind bending reality tunnel smashing", you don't really believe you're out, or smashed yours, do you? In fact, do you believe it is within human's capability to smash all believe systems and arrive at reality?

Nor is Richard necessarily any closer to the truth, just because he is on a passionate search for it.

What does, in my view, make him appear closer than a lot of people i've come across though, is his great ability (concentration, humbleness, respect may well be some of the reasons) to not get bogged down in polemics, but instead really he just keeps trying point across, to be understood.. and it seems to me, he would be genuinly pleased, if he would meet some one on his logical wave, who would prove him wrong, because i believe he really would like to substantiate this intuitiv sense of faith, he feels - and therefore knows exists.

You ask, what is the point in building a firm believe system, and answer your own question, saying it just leads to agro argument...

What the outcome of any firm believe system is, is mostly down to our choices of how we apply it in our lives, though i think, in order for any believe system to reach a certain state of conviction, strength, and validity in ones live, it seems reasonable to conclude that that cannot happen without some periods and phases of conflict. Don't you think? I mean, look at the struggle Richard is going through to convince others of his believe.
But what is the point in the first place to "build" them, if, as you say everyone perceives reality differently to the next person?

ethios4 wrote:So, what degree of evidence would satisfy the atheists here?

I went to the Ableton forums and found jesus! sweetjesus maybe, but I doubt anyone's going to change their minds here, just gain some insight into what the other side thinks, have some food for thought.

Two separate people very close to me had serious meth addiction going on, and at the lowest point of that mess had experiences with Jesus Christ wherein their addiction was completely removed from them with a total absence of the usual intense withdrawal symptoms. Must be some kind of built-in survival mechanism where the body can somehow instantly free itself of chemical dependency, right?

I relate that to rock climbing. If you wear a harness and have someone on belay you can climb a 40 foot rock face without falling or maybe even breaking a sweat. Take away the harness and most of us would freak out and probably not make the climb. Or call it a placebo effect. Recovering addicts of all kinds find peace in themselves because jesus forgives and loves them, that gives them hope. It works for them, not for me. I find it amusing and annoying.

I have a question about Occam's Razor. Well....who's to say whats the 'simpler' explanation?

For me, that's the killer, to me it's VERY obvious that humans NEED a god, "if god didn't exist, it would be neceassary to invent him." It makes much more sense to me that there is no invisible man living in the sky who loves you but can also burn your soul in the flames of hell for all time because you masturbated or were born gay and lived true to yourself.


particle - but you are being a dick, you keep calling me narrow minded, and calling general groups of people stupid. If you weren't tripping over your own words constantly it'd piss me off. To me, you using god to guide your life is narrow minded. Have a question about the world? All the answers are in the Bible, a faulty text manipulated by men. Is there something we don't understand, that's god at work. WEAK!! Live life according to a religion is a 'reality tunnel' way of dealing with the world. I don't think you're capable of understanding that people think differently than you and that's OK. Please chill on the insults.

But I'm not talking about "Christ gave them the strength to overcome" I'm talking about unavoidable physical withdrawal being non-existant. I'm talking about its like they had never used at all. Do you think that survival mechanism can instantly erase physical dependancy on a cellular level?

Back to my question....what degree of evidence is necessary to 'believe'?

ethios4 wrote:Back to my question....what degree of evidence is necessary to 'believe'?

Short answer, none. I believe people need to find their own way.

BUT if Jesus H Christ showed up, hung out on earth for a few years, did the talk show circuit doing his parlor tricks that would certainly change my mind. I wouldn't feel dumb or misguided, that's cool with me.

There are some f-ed up circus sideshow examples of god in peoples' lives, speaking in tongues, exorcisms, bleeding statues, images on toast. I don't buy it.

I think it's great when people can kick addiction or turn their lives around through christ, whatever it takes. Just keep thy religion to thyself.

Well, I dont know about keeping my beliefs to myself...no one else here does! But certainly I'm against limiting anyone's freedom unless its necessary for the common good...ie murderers, thieves, presidents, etc..

Seriously this thread has challenged me in ways I have not been challenged since I came to 'believe'...and that is soo freakin good! It's made me aware that alot of the reasons I have for believing what I believe have drifted to the back of mind, and it is time to revist those reasons and constantly evaluate and update.

Tone Deft wrote: BUT if Jesus H Christ showed up, hung out on earth for a few years, did the talk show circuit doing his parlor tricks that would certainly change my mind. I wouldn't feel dumb or misguided, that's cool with me.

Seems like he already did that though...