Ableton Forum

Machinesworking wrote:

beats me wrote: There's the possibility that the higher power is on some other plain of existence in a form our minds can't even comprehend. Maybe there's many plains of existence our energy goes through and we don't know which level we are on now or what came before or what will come next. Sometimes I just feel like man came up with God because it's easier to comprehend on some levels.

Straight atheist here, no interest at all in making a deity out of the universe, and giving it a personality of any kind, or of pondering whether there is an afterlife, all seems really pointless to me. My take is to just realize that most people need a god to exist to feel comfortable and like something is looking after them etc. I don't have to like that, but to constantly question or badger people about it is pointless.

In AA I've always felt the same way about it, that people need something besides themselves to prop them up. People come into AA feeling all beaten down like a dog etc. completely convinced that they couldn't possibly take control of their own addiction themselves without some divine intervention, so higher power guy does it for them... It's great for the people who need it I guess? but if western civilizations infatuation with the concept of grace pisses you off like it does me, it's best to find meetings that don't stress that stuff.

I won't argue with a program that has worked for so many people. Live and let live. But for me I've determined that a lot of the 12 steps are busy work and a distraction for those who benefit from that type thing keeping them sober. But what it really comes down to is going to meetings and being surrounded by people who have struggled with sobriety or are struggling with sobriety, and also spending some time with those people outside meetings. Thus the 12th step which essentially says start all over with other people. It never ends and keeps you looped in the process. It's really quite clever when you think about it. Brings a new meaning to the term "you're out of the loop."

beats me wrote: I won't argue with a program that has worked for so many people. Live and let live. But for me I've determined that a lot of the 12 steps are busy work and a distraction for those who benefit from that type thing keeping them sober

Well a lot of it is basic self help stuff. Most people have a list of friends and family they've inadvertently put in shitty situations or just annoyed etc. Had a girlfriend who was big on psychology books and loved pop psychology too, and a lot of the same principals apply to any sort of behavioral change.

But what it really comes down to is going to meetings and being surrounded by people who have struggled with sobriety or are struggling with sobriety, and also spending some time with those people outside meetings. Thus the 12th step which essentially says start all over with other people. It never ends and keeps you looped in the process. It's really quite clever when you think about it. Brings a new meaning to the term "you're out of the loop."

Yeah an extended network of people who are at least actively trying to stay sober is pretty cool. Mine's admittedly small. Most people interested in heavy electronic music, and underground stuff are practicing alcoholics.
But a buddy of mine who actually will do things like jump on a plane to SF to see the Throbbing Gristle reunion show with me, or invite me to Cambridge England etc. is from AA so there you go.

beats me wrote:

Machinesworking wrote:

beats me wrote: There's the possibility that the higher power is on some other plain of existence in a form our minds can't even comprehend. Maybe there's many plains of existence our energy goes through and we don't know which level we are on now or what came before or what will come next. Sometimes I just feel like man came up with God because it's easier to comprehend on some levels.

Straight atheist here, no interest at all in making a deity out of the universe, and giving it a personality of any kind, or of pondering whether there is an afterlife, all seems really pointless to me. My take is to just realize that most people need a god to exist to feel comfortable and like something is looking after them etc. I don't have to like that, but to constantly question or badger people about it is pointless.

In AA I've always felt the same way about it, that people need something besides themselves to prop them up. People come into AA feeling all beaten down like a dog etc. completely convinced that they couldn't possibly take control of their own addiction themselves without some divine intervention, so higher power guy does it for them... It's great for the people who need it I guess? but if western civilizations infatuation with the concept of grace pisses you off like it does me, it's best to find meetings that don't stress that stuff.

I won't argue with a program that has worked for so many people. Live and let live. But for me I've determined that a lot of the 12 steps are busy work and a distraction for those who benefit from that type thing keeping them sober. But what it really comes down to is going to meetings and being surrounded by people who have struggled with sobriety or are struggling with sobriety, and also spending some time with those people outside meetings. Thus the 12th step which essentially says start all over with other people. It never ends and keeps you looped in the process. It's really quite clever when you think about it. Brings a new meaning to the term "you're out of the loop."

I can see how the notion of "god" can make things easier to integrate into our own reality..... it's just like some kind of attempt to give a word to the energy source we are somehow linked to, which is at present unquantifiable

there is definitely a "power greater than ourselves" (as the AA steps put it) in the universe, all we are not sure of is how it relates to us because it can't be scientifically quantified as yet.

The way I look at "the "god" thing is more like some great cosmic power grid.... like the particles quantum physicists are looking for to try and explain the forces at work in the universe.... like stars... feeding on a phenomenal power source that is such a staggering amount of power that we can barely even comprehend it and yet it's there, it exists, and all life on earth depends on it.... where the fuck does it all come from???

maybe that "spark of life" that surges through us and gets us up in the morning is not really much different the electricity that powers our homes, we just haven't discovered the source yet

so in a way "God" is just like a shorthand for plugging into the grid, and by "believing" that there is something you are somehow opening the circuit and allowing it in.....

I've certainly felt shit like that with meditation..... and drugs/alcohol ..... whatever way people plug-in to it doesn't matter, so long as it opens the switch.....

For me, the idea is to get better at plugging into it without the booze etc.... that would be swell.

Machinesworking wrote: Well a lot of it is basic self help stuff. Most people have a list of friends and family they've inadvertently put in shitty situations or just annoyed etc. Had a girlfriend who was big on psychology books and loved pop psychology too, and a lot of the same principals apply to any sort of behavioral change.

I haven't gotten to the step yet of making amends to the people I've hurt, but I've already thought about that step and honestly I'm pulling up a blank list. I'm not perfect but there really isn't anybody that I've hurt because of alcohol or drug use beyond some little spat that they were probably also under the influence so in my opinion it washes out. Plus I'm usually quick to apologize after the situations soon after when I am wrong.

So I went to some bars last night and surprisingly had a blast, pretty much the same kind of time I would have had drunk but with completely clarity and without any moments of misunderstandings or overreactions. I still danced to the music I would have and didn't to the music I wouldn't have. Still had flirtaous moments with women, which I thought would be something that wasn't possible. It was all fun. I wasn't even annoyed or disgusted by the drunks. I more thought they were silly or felt bad for them and thier behavior and how they're going to feel the next day.

And this might be some higher power cosmic shit right here, my sponsor showed up to where I was at by complete coincidence. San Jose is a large sprawling city so the odds are against it. He's actually a year younger than me and is a singer in a band so we can relate on the music level. Really cool.

I had 3 other friends that were sober for the night but they weren't having a good time at it. I think they are just taking a break from drugs and alcohol and aren't really seeking any support. I think this is where AA really benefited me. In my experimenting with sobriety friends' world they are still living in a world of drunks feeling like complete outcasts and mad about it. Since I've recently been introduced to a world where nobody drinks I can see these nights as being out amongst the drunks but they aren't my people and I'm visiting their world. Nothing to be mad about.