Tune Live to 432,10 Hz (instead of 440) ???

Discuss music production with Ableton Live.
ambientidm
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Re: Tune Live to 432,10 Hz (instead of 440) ???

Post by ambientidm » Sat Feb 07, 2015 6:04 am

ambientidm wrote:The human voice does not have an infinite range thus scales have a sweet spot as far as tuning goes.
this makes perfect sense
every "body" of matter has certain resonate characteristics that are finite
the human vocal cords is one of them
if you think tuning really does mean anything then why not set A to 599 or any other freq or bump the scale right out of the human hearing range
the human voice has a finite range thus tuning makes a difference just as the ears have a finite range of hearing
some think the brightness of a 440 is better than the warmer tones of 432 or other lower As
might point is 432 is going relieve tension on the vocal cords and i am not tying in any mystical meaning to any of this


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Re: Tune Live to 432,10 Hz (instead of 440) ???

Post by re:dream » Sat Feb 07, 2015 7:31 am

Personally, as someone with a lower voice, I would prefer A to be at 256 hz. That's my natural reverberation.

stringtapper
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Re: Tune Live to 432,10 Hz (instead of 440) ???

Post by stringtapper » Sat Feb 07, 2015 7:51 am

ambientidm wrote:
ambientidm wrote:The human voice does not have an infinite range thus scales have a sweet spot as far as tuning goes.
this makes perfect sense
every "body" of matter has certain resonate characteristics that are finite
the human vocal cords is one of them
if you think tuning really does mean anything then why not set A to 599 or any other freq or bump the scale right out of the human hearing range
the human voice has a finite range thus tuning makes a difference just as the ears have a finite range of hearing
some think the brightness of a 440 is better than the warmer tones of 432 or other lower As
might point is 432 is going relieve tension on the vocal cords and i am not tying in any mystical meaning to any of this
Right, lower is easier for some people to sing. That's pretty much all you're saying. One could reverse your own proposal and ask why not just bump A down to 300Hz? In fact I believe there is a pitch pipe from the early 18th century that was found to have an A=380Hz base.

The human voice having a finite range is no real reason in itself to tune to precisely 432Hz. Why? Well the simplest reason is that even if you tune to that standard its still possible to write music in extreme vocal ranges. If you think a different tuning standard can somehow eliminate the possibility of singers having to sing higher pitches in real life music then that's just absurd.

Also, if range is such a big factor then how can you explain that the difference between 440Hz and 432Hz is less than a quarter tone, let alone a semitone? It's only a 31.76 cent difference and yet you're claiming it's going to make this vast difference in the way people sing? It doesn't hold water.

In the real world what professional singers do is either train the hell out of their voices (mostly classical singers) or simply find keys that work best for their range (more common with pop singers).

Try simply staying at A=440 but transposing Hey Jude to the key of E major (original key is F major). Seriously, try it. That way you get lower singing that's more comfortable for your voice and you don't have to get into alternate tuning standards that 99% of working musicians will not be tuned to (i.e. you'll be able to make music with more people).

So now that I've offered a working solution to your dilemma, one that we musicans call "transposition", if you're still stuck on the 432Hz thing then you'll need to come up with a better description and explanation of why you still think it's "more resonant" with every single human's vocal cords, despite the level of physiological variability that exists with regard to the human voice.
Last edited by stringtapper on Sat Feb 07, 2015 8:00 am, edited 1 time in total.
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stringtapper
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Re: Tune Live to 432,10 Hz (instead of 440) ???

Post by stringtapper » Sat Feb 07, 2015 7:56 am

This article has several outright falsehoods in it including the popular (for 432ruthers) myth that Goebbels schemed to implement A=440Hz as a standard.

"Hey wanna get people to believe something that has no basis in history, science, or reality? Tell 'em Nazis opposed it! Hooray!"

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musiklipp
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Re: Tune Live to 432,10 Hz (instead of 440) ???

Post by musiklipp » Sat Feb 07, 2015 4:55 pm

Hi,

I think you should start a new topic about different tunings in general because this has nothing to do with the original ableton-related topic. or did i miss something?

Any thoughts about being able or not being able to tune ableton? As I mentioned before, at least in my world, there are serious purely practically reasons why tuning might be necessary from time to time.
Any reasons why ableton doesn´t offer this option?

or is the simple answer that ABLETON in reality is UNABLETUNE ???

cheers,
Karsten

stringtapper
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Re: Tune Live to 432,10 Hz (instead of 440) ???

Post by stringtapper » Sat Feb 07, 2015 5:47 pm

Well it's definitely not a native feature in Live, if that's what you're asking.

Logic X has the most robust tuning feature that I've ever seen. And not just simply being able to tune to any base frequency in equal temperament, but the ability to choose from a huge list of historic temperaments or even define your own. It also has Hermode tuning now. Nuts. More on that here: http://sethares.engr.wisc.edu/paperspdf/hermode.pdf

I suppose a Max For Live device (or series of devices) could be made to try to tune Ableton but it would almost surely have to be done on a track-by-track basis and would probably involve some pitch bend magic for MIDI instruments combined with detuning of clips on audio tracks. Not a rabbit hole I'm particularly interested in going down.
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musiklipp
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Re: Tune Live to 432,10 Hz (instead of 440) ???

Post by musiklipp » Sat Feb 07, 2015 6:13 pm

Yeah....i thought about the m4l route on every track or setting up extra tracks for each midi-keyboard and routing them to the seperate separate channels.
is pitchbend the only way to "detune" midinotes? in that case all instruments would need the same pitchbend-range..
hmmmm....ok. back to the m4l device on each track idea: the device would need to get the pitchbend range from the instrument to take that into account. should be possible.

still...it would be great if ableton had a global tuning option!

Stromkraft
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Re: Tune Live to 432,10 Hz (instead of 440) ???

Post by Stromkraft » Sun Feb 08, 2015 11:06 pm

stringtapper wrote: Also, if range is such a big factor then how can you explain that the difference between 440Hz and 432Hz is less than a quarter tone, let alone a semitone? It's only a 31.76 cent difference and yet you're claiming it's going to make this vast difference in the way people sing?
How is the difference between 440 and 432.10 not 7.90 Hz or approximately 1.79 cents of 440?
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fishmonkey
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Re: Tune Live to 432,10 Hz (instead of 440) ???

Post by fishmonkey » Sun Feb 08, 2015 11:35 pm

Stromkraft wrote:
stringtapper wrote: Also, if range is such a big factor then how can you explain that the difference between 440Hz and 432Hz is less than a quarter tone, let alone a semitone? It's only a 31.76 cent difference and yet you're claiming it's going to make this vast difference in the way people sing?
How is the difference between 440 and 432.10 not 7.90 Hz or approximately 1.79 cents of 440?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cent_%28music%29

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Re: Tune Live to 432,10 Hz (instead of 440) ???

Post by re:dream » Mon Feb 09, 2015 8:51 am

I was going to add my 2 cents ...

Stromkraft
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Re: Tune Live to 432,10 Hz (instead of 440) ???

Post by Stromkraft » Mon Feb 09, 2015 11:56 am

Thanks Fishmonkey.
Make some music!

stringtapper
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Re: Tune Live to 432,10 Hz (instead of 440) ???

Post by stringtapper » Tue Feb 10, 2015 11:50 pm

I had forgotten about this article but this guy really lays out many of the arguments I've made here and more. If you actually understand all the points he makes and still aren't convinced that this 432Hz stuff is whack then I'm not sure what to tell you.

http://www.miltonline.com/2014/01/07/hertz-so-good/
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Stromkraft
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Re: Tune Live to 432,10 Hz (instead of 440) ???

Post by Stromkraft » Wed Feb 11, 2015 12:44 am

stringtapper wrote:this 432Hz stuff is whack
That's your scientific conclusion? That's like calling the sentiments "I feel G minor makes the audience respond better to this track than it in Eb minor" or "The floor really took this track to their heart and danced like crazy once I took it up to 130bpm" whack. It's about what you prefer, that's all.

432Hz is just another tuning reference. Let's leave it at that. People will still prefer one tuning or the other, both or neither. That they may want to explain this in quasi-scientific terms is best just ignored.

In the music arena, too many people let their beliefs and prejudices decide how to work rather than just trying stuff out and see what they like. That's especially clear reading many posts in the Ableton forums and many other forums too.
Last edited by Stromkraft on Thu Feb 12, 2015 2:55 am, edited 1 time in total.
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stringtapper
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Re: Tune Live to 432,10 Hz (instead of 440) ???

Post by stringtapper » Wed Feb 11, 2015 1:33 am

Stromkraft wrote:
stringtapper wrote:this 432Hz stuff is whack
That's your scientific conclusion? That's like calling the sentiments "I feel G minor makes the audience respond better to this track than it in Eb minor" or "The floor really took this track to their heart and danced like crazy once I played took it up to 130bpm" whack. It's about what you prefer, that's all.

432Hz is just another tuning reference. Let's leave it at that. People will still prefer one tuning or the other, both or neither. That they may want to explain this in quasi-scientific terms is best just ignored.

In the music arena, too many people let their beliefs and prejudices decide how to work rather than just trying stuff out and see what they like. That's especially clear reading many posts in the Ableton forums and many other forums too.
Ok, listen friend, it's getting old having to explain basic things to you, especially when you're willing to write long and hard about what I'm supposedly getting wrong when you've shown you aren't even aware of some of the basic concepts at work here (e.g. musical cents).

Did you read the article I just posted?

If you had then you would see a list of claims that the "432ruthers" tend to make. When I say "this 432Hz stuff is whack" that's what I'm talking about. The claims they make and how they are scientifically untenable.

People can tune to whatever they want to. Could not care less about that. But spreading misinformation and pseudo-science in order to bolster their reasons for why they do it is not something that I, as someone who works in the area of music scholarship professionally, care to see happening and I aim to make sure there's as much real knowledge out there about it.

Once more for your benefit (because I get the sense you like to argue just for the hell of it, even when you don't seem to know the particulars of what's actually being discussed):

Me calling the 432Hz business "whack" isn't about some subjective matter of "taste" and "what sounds good to me." It's about the claims these people make (which I'm not even sure you're actually aware of) and how existing science proves those claims to be fanciful nonsense.
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