Ableton Forum

You posted some quotes. They were all condemning Israeli action (not unjustifiably). You state you are critical of Israel and actively involved in pro-palestinian political activity in Ireland and state your belief that they flout UN charter more than any other country, but would prefer I don't call it anti-Israel.

Sorry, I do want to call it Anti-Israeli.

To underline your feelings you pop back up to post a list of the dead and their injuries. I'm not sure what value this has to the debate (the title of which seems to have been mislaid or forgotten, but for now lets call it 'Dum's Anger at Israel'

That's how debates work you see?

Unfortunately if we're to have a serious debate you will have to learn to drop the insults at the end of your posts as it devalues everything that goes before it.

You seem to want me to think you posted this thread simply because it was newsworthy, but surely a man of your intellect can understand that even internet morons would expect you to have unserstood the consequences before you posted.

LoopStationZebra wrote:That's just sick and wrong.

heh, ok I must have missed this...and it's amusing.

9 activists dead, 6 unaccounted for, 1.5 million forced to live in an open-air concentration camp that was up until very recently their sovereign home.... and after 8 pages of your willful insolence it is only now you can muster what appears to be a sincere 'that's just sick and wrong' .. and where is it directed ?
at me, for supposedly not conceding when I should have.

bravo.

UKRuss wrote:You posted some quotes. They were all condemning Israeli action (not unjustifiably). You state you are critical of Israel and actively involved in pro-palestinian political activity in Ireland and state your belief that they flout UN charter more than any other country, but would prefer I don't call it anti-Israel.

Sorry, I do want to call it Anti-Israeli.

I posted the immediate reaction of the international community. True.
I'm critical of the war crimes israel commits, as are the united nations. True.

I didn't say I would prefer you to call it something other than 'anti-israel', I said I would like you to elaborate on what 'anti-israel' is supposed to mean. I haven't used 'pro-palestine' in this discussion either. I'm loathe to employ such glib, semi-meaningless labels.

But, you have answered me. You don't really know what anti-israel is supposed to mean, but you will happily use the label if they justifiably criticise the state. Gotcha.

UKRuss wrote: To underline your feelings you pop back up to post a list of the dead and their injuries. I'm not sure what value this has to the debate

I submitted the list of dead, and their injuries. With no sub-text. The value of the list is that you can see the severity of the assault on the activists. head shots (not leg shots), many multiples of wounds. Why didn't I attach a sub-text ? ..i though there was no need. There isn't really.

UKRuss wrote: Unfortunately if we're to have a serious debate you will have to learn to drop the insults at the end of your posts as it devalues everything that goes before it.

that's pretty convenient of you to say.
I offered you plenty to chew on, but you chose to stay totally on the ad-hominem path. Fine, I don't care, but you're ''its jews vs muslims. nothing more'' argument is evidently not that strong if you can't even attempt to defend it under even the mildest of scrutiny. You seem more than happy to muse on that argument if the person you are engaged with AGREES with you. I suggested the argument is simply a mechanism for justifying your apathy. I suggested the reason you're apathetic is because you're too comfortable being fat & lazy to embrace the truth of the conflict. Which might involve you doing something. You can call that an insult if you like, but it's not one. I suppose I hit on a raw nerve with the fat & lazy thing?

UKRuss wrote: You seem to want me to think you posted this thread simply because it was newsworthy, but surely a man of your intellect can understand that even internet morons would expect you to have unserstood the consequences before you posted.

I have no issue with morons throwing their hat in the ring, ya I expected it. as I said earlier 'I wish I could say I was amazed...'
They can join, but if no one else is doing it I will happily shine a light on the gaping holes in their arguments.

if only you spent all this energy illustrating how your ''it's jews vs muslims. nothing more'' argument is water-tight, instead of steering me down a you-said-I-said path to forum drama.

The original content of the thread and the highlighting of the injuries you posted were to outline the unfairness of the israeli actions. More than this other things you have said indicate you are unhappy with the operation of the state of israel and its actions and have been for some time. I can reasonably conclude that to be the case because you have already intimated that your are involved in pro palestinian activity and have been before the flotilla incident. Therefore it is not unreasonable to assume you are essentially anti-israel.

You can choose to deflect the pro-palestinian label as glib and meaningless if you like, but be that as it may, it is one I am using to describe your thread and your stance in general on the israel/paletine conflict. If that is incorrect then please expand rather than focusing on the semantics.

Again you are intelligent enough to understand what I mean in context by terms such as anti-israeli and pro-palestinian yet i suspect it serves you better to focus on the minutae than the reality of the full picture of the palestinian/israeli crisis.

I'm not sure in which context or language you can construe calling someone fat and lazy, when you don't know them, as not being an insult.

Don't sit on the fence man! Are you simply little cross with israel for their actions against the flotilla are you actively involved in assiting the palestinian cause?

If the former then fine it is a fun thread with some quotes i could have read in the Guardian the following morning, if it is the latter then lets start the debate. If we get to the point of that debate where i feel i need to expand on my religious stance, I will do.

dum wrote:blathering vitriolic ad hominum nonsense

The only thing greater than seeing how much the plight of the Palestinians angers you and tears you up inside?

The fact that there's not a fucking thing that you can do about it.





Well, unless you call meeting with a bunch of fellow 'Irish Activists' and taking part in utterly meaningless Irish 'Palestinian solidarity campaigns' doing something about it. lol.

Christ, I can't imagine the fucking misfits and ne' er-do-wells that attend those sessions. Wait. On second thought. I can.



So, can we expect you to be on one of the boats in the next flotilla? Mr. Activist?



Go fuck yourself?

UKRuss wrote:The original content of the thread and the highlighting of the injuries you posted were to outline the unfairness of the israeli actions. More than this other things you have said indicate you are unhappy with the operation of the state of israel and its actions and have been for some time. I can reasonably conclude that to be the case because you have already intimated that your are involved in pro palestinian activity and have been before the flotilla incident. Therefore it is not unreasonable to assume you are essentially anti-israel.

You can choose to deflect the pro-palestinian label as glib and meaningless if you like, but be that as it may, it is one I am using to describe your thread and your stance in general on the israel/paletine conflict. If that is incorrect then please expand rather than focusing on the semantics.

Again you are intelligent enough to understand what I mean in context by terms such as anti-israeli and pro-palestinian yet i suspect it serves you better to focus on the minutae than the reality of the full picture of the palestinian/israeli crisis.

I understand the reality, quite clearly.
now you're asking ME to expand ? now that's rich. How many opportunities and requests do you need until YOU will expand on your ''its jews vs muslims. nothing more'' argument ?
That's practically a rhetorical question, because I really don't think you can expand on it. You are, without a shadow of a doubt, completely wrong in that argument. I've stated why I believe that to be the case two pages ago. You have yet to defend your argument.

But, regarding the labels. here's what I said, again:

I'm critical of israel. So is the UN, infact there is no other state in modern history who has done more to flout the UN charter. Call it 'anti-israel' if you want, but it would be interesting if you would elaborate on what excactly 'anti-israel' is supposed to mean. It seems that pigeon holing someone into that category makes it easier for you to ignore what they're saying. I could be wrong.

As I said, I don't understand your (as well as others) usage of these pro/anti labels. Basically you are saying if anyone criticises israel's war crimes, they are 'anti-israel' ... if they are supportive of the palestinian cause they are 'pro-palestine'. Re-read the piece in bold, that's how I feel about the anti/pro labels. Until you can elaborate further, that's what I will continue to believe. So, employ your labels, I can obviously get the jist of what is being said given the context - but I don't agree with the usage of these labels for the reason I outlined. In plain english.

UKRuss wrote: I'm not sure in which context or language you can construe calling someone fat and lazy, when you don't know them, as not being an insult.

apathetic people in the west are indeed fat & lazy. in comparison. You do realise the people of palestine are kept in a perpetual state of malnourishment, right ?
I'm now guessing that you are fat & lazy even by UK standards, hence you taking my comment as a personal insult. In most places, highlighting uncomfortable facts, when relevant, isn't always seen as intentionally insulting.

UKRuss wrote: Don't sit on the fence man! Are you simply little cross with israel for their actions against the flotilla are you actively involved in assiting the palestinian cause?

If the former then fine it is a fun thread with some quotes i could have read in the Guardian the following morning, if it is the latter then lets start the debate. If we get to the point of that debate where i feel i need to expand on my religious stance, I will do.

huh ? I don't get it. former or latter - challenge my views if you see some inconsistencies, falsities, whatever. And that's yet ANOTHER cop-out. You simply cannot illustrate to anyone here that ''its jews vs muslims. nothing more'' holds any water.

from two pages ago:

Zionism hijacks religious rhetoric for it's own ends, as a glib justification for an occupation of a region where palestinians have lived for a consecutive thousands of years. If the illegal settlements were lived in by buddhist settlers, then the smokescreen would be ''muslims V buddhists'' .... of course the issue is really all about the occupation.

If you want to believe zionism and the zionist occupation of the palestinian region is a purely religious movement, so be it. But don't be so utterly idiotic as to think palestinians are resisting purely because of the aggressors choice of faith. no people, no matter what their faith, would allow themselves to endure what the palestinians have had to endure at the hands of an occupying force.

For everyone else the issue revolves around textbook occupation moves, politics, illegal settlements and the concept of hateful/aggressive settlers being imported from around the world to occupy these illegal plantations.

UKRuss wrote: are you actively involved in assiting the palestinian cause?

Oh, he's active alright. Actively wanking it with his fellow Irish ne' er-do-well Activists in what must be the most bitter and angry circle jerks of all time.


Wanking Irish Activist #1
"Fucking Israelis!...." *huff, tug, grr, ohh!, huff*



dum
"yeah, bastards!...." *huff, tug, grr, ohh!, huff*



Wanking Irish Activist #2
"We should do something!...." *huff, tug, grr, ohh!, huff*



Wanking Irish Activist #3
"Yeah!...." *huff, tug, grr, ohh!, huff*



dum
"Lets meet outside the pub tomorrow!...." *huff, tug, grr, ohh!, huff*



Wanking Irish Activist #4
"What for?...." *huff, tug, grr, ohh!, huff*



dum
"So we can show everyone how angry we are!...." *huff, tug, grr, ohh!, huff*



Wanking Irish Activist #4
"cool...." *huff, tug, grr, ohh!, huff*

what ? you forgot to punctuate with ->

dum wrote:But for the most part it's easy to ignore, you have exposed yourself quite clearly in previous discussions (beats me/xenophobe) as someone completely and unequivocally disingenuous in their arguments.

LoopStationZebra wrote:Helen Thomas under fire for saying Jews in Israel should go back to Germany, Poland
http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/20 ... 4k5&hpt=T2



3dot, get your bags packed!

yeah.. I'll also pack some matches for the stoves..
I wouldn't know where to go though.. it's either Hungary or Yemen... decisions.. decisions..

LoopStationZebra wrote:
So, can we expect you to be on one of the boats in the next flotilla? Mr. Activist?

Answer the question. Can we expect you to be a part of the next flotilla?

3dot... wrote:

LoopStationZebra wrote:Helen Thomas under fire for saying Jews in Israel should go back to Germany, Poland
http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/20 ... 4k5&hpt=T2



3dot, get your bags packed!

yeah.. I'll also pack some matches for the stoves..
I wouldn't know where to go though.. it's either Hungary or Yemen... decisions.. decisions..

that article is kind of amusing. simply because criticising israel in the states, in the white house no less, is career death. and she gave it both barrels.

likening what she said to 'asking african-americans to go home to africa' is crass beyond crass. pretty much an egregious lie disguised as spin.

the settlers have bulldozed their way into their illegal homes 40 yrs ago, africans were brought to the u.s (a nation of immigrants) as slaves 300 yrs ago.

asking illegal settlers to relocate is madness...how ?

LoopStationZebra wrote:

LoopStationZebra wrote:
So, can we expect you to be on one of the boats in the next flotilla? Mr. Activist?

Answer the question. Can we expect you to be a part of the next flotilla?

I was a part of the recent one. Do you think 10,000 tonnes of AID just falls from the sky ?

also:

dum wrote:But for the most part it's easy to ignore, you have exposed yourself quite clearly in previous discussions (beats me/xenophobe) as someone completely and unequivocally disingenuous in their arguments.

ok,
I'm going to 'hide' now




but, UnitedKingdomRuss, don't let my absence deter you from talking out of your arse. I'll be back at some point to clean up.

dum wrote:

3dot... wrote:

LoopStationZebra wrote:Helen Thomas under fire for saying Jews in Israel should go back to Germany, Poland
http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/20 ... 4k5&hpt=T2



3dot, get your bags packed!

yeah.. I'll also pack some matches for the stoves..
I wouldn't know where to go though.. it's either Hungary or Yemen... decisions.. decisions..

that article is kind of amusing. simply because criticising israel in the states, in the white house no less, is career death. and she gave it both barrels.

likening what she said to 'asking african-americans to go home to africa' is crass beyond crass. pretty much an egregious lie disguised as spin.

the settlers have bulldozed their way into their illegal homes 40 yrs ago, africans were brought to the u.s (a nation of immigrants) as slaves 300 yrs ago.

asking illegal settlers to relocate is madness...how ?

yeah... I thought it was stupid too
a better rhetoric would be asking all Anglos.. and Spaniards...Germans French and Dutch to leave their homes in America/Africa/Australia/New-Zealand..
not really though.. those were conquering empires..
we are not an empire..
also.. she got it wrong..
we came back home.. after being beaten like dogs in our 3rd big diaspora

meh... I believe what Hellen said is way off the "criticism" definition..
and that's where the "career death" lies..
also... I suppose she's at the end of her career anyways..
so.. she allowed the world to see her true face

dum... about zionism.. and legal rights.. as we discussed in other threads... it depends on how far back you wanna go
there are a lot of examples pre political-Zionism... Babylon... Romans and Greeks :
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pre-Zionist_Aliyah

you're views are biased.. you seek justice.. but for only 1 side...
your sense of justice is ignoring many points in history that led to this point..
as if this is 1 single event that occured
in a courtroom ... ALL facts relative to a dispute are laid on the table and considered

about our failed govenment
our government mentality is a war mentality..
we have not had a chance to STOP FIGHTING since 1948...you can read up on that

wiki wrote:In November 1947, the United Nations voted in favor of the partition of Palestine, proposing the creation of a Jewish state, an Arab state, and a UN-administered Jerusalem.[16] Partition was accepted by Zionist leaders but rejected by Arab leaders, leading to civil war. Israel declared independence on 14 May 1948 and neighboring Arab states attacked the next day. Since then, Israel has fought a series of wars with neighboring Arab states,[17] and in consequence occupies territories, including the West Bank and Gaza Strip, beyond those delineated in the 1949 Armistice Agreements. Israel has signed peace treaties with Egypt and Jordan, but efforts to resolve conflict with the Palestinians have so far only met with limited success and some of Israel's international borders remain in dispute.

... and for a good reason
we are in the process of being corrupted and morally tested..
turning us into the Fascists and haters we despised all of our history..
if political-zionism was a means to an end in a political world..
I'm not so sure today the ends justify the means..
it definitely did not turn out as planned..

but the romantic idea behind zionism was that Israel would be a hall for peace..
connecting east with west...
and would have a place in the courts of countries
that Jews will have a place to turn to if they are ever prosecuted again
(you know.. pogroms.. genocide.. the usual)
oh well... romantics..

sad irony..
this could have been done peacefully..
but the Arab nation decided to decline and opted for war..
what's happening now is just a continuation of this war..
it's a tiny piece of land in the huge "Arab nation"... a small speck if you will..
but the only one that's important to the Jews..
and it has been that way since we left Egypt way back when..
it seems history will repeat itself for us until the world ends..

read up before claiming to be well-read

dum wrote:ok,
I'm going to 'hide' now




but, UnitedKingdomRuss, don't let my absence deter you from talking out of your arse. I'll be back at some point to clean up.

Cleaning up my shit is about the right intellectual level for you.

What's this thread about? Anger about the flotilla attacks or whipping up anti-Israeli feeling? If the former I have nothing to add it's sad and everyone agrees, if the latter, by all means start the debate whenever you're ready. But i can tell you know no matter what you say i call religious hatred and supernatural worship idiocy. I'm sure I am repeating myself now but shoudl we actually get into any kind of worthy debate then I may expand, when i feel it is necessary, on my views. I certainly won't be doing it on your say so. So far nothing has been said in this thread by you that lends anything to a real debate on the middle east conflicts. Just anti-israeli propoganda that you can report back to your activist group. "Look I raided a music forum under a pseudonym and got everyone worked up about Israel"

Russ is my real name and I am from the United Kingdon, don't forget it.

I quite enjoyed some of the 4/4 and b0unce antics but now it is getting a bit boring, certainly not worth me getting my intellectuals out for. So,

run along sonny, Mum's got your tea ready. Pop back when you can come back out to play.

In fact, fuck it, I've got better things to do...like, I dunno, watching my ballsack move around. It has more chance of telling me anything interesting or new about the conflict in the middle east.