Conspiracy theorists combat this!

[robtronik]

LOL. more israeli conspiracy theorists. Keep'em coming. LOL.

Does someone above dispute that Bin Laden isn't the leader of Al Qaeda? Explain further.

rob.

[Nod]

LOL. more israeli conspiracy theorists. Keep'em coming. LOL.

The US isn't my country - I think from various posts it appears to be yours. Don't you think it somewhat foolish to appear so blase about the confirmed spying programs, agents, surveillance and members of your government who show clear bias? Would you feel it expedient if you discovered that prior knowledge of 3000 American murders were kept quiet to draw further support from you? I'd imagine not - so I'd appreciate your explanation for the Israeli's actions, subsequent arrest and release under diplomatic pressure. As you say - LOL

Does someone above dispute that Bin Laden isn't the leader of Al Qaeda? Explain further.

Same concept as George being in charge of anything other than coffee & doughnuts innit?

[robtronik]

Yep, I live here in the U.S. It's "my country" as you might say.

The ridicule that I have for the arguments put forth here are about the conpiracy theories that surround 9/11. Most of the theories that put forth about government being complicit in the attacks are apparently due to all the "holes" in the version(s?) that have been reported so far.

many also try to use said hole as proof that there was a conspiracy! This makes me laugh. How about the reason for the "holes" in the version that has been captured to date are there because we simply don't have the data (yet).

How about the fact that there are completely reasonable physical reasons (corroborated by reputable scientists whose very nature is built on skeptism and historical precedence) for the physics of that day and what happened to the pentagon and how the towers fell?

Everyone that pushes for the conpiracy wants to so fully believe that their world view on governments, corporations, and nations like Isreal are somehow behind the attacks (or were complicit in it).

And this makes ROTFLOL when you think about what the goals might be for such a heinious action (if it were all true)?

If the goals were to subvert humanity or citizenship even further (particularly the Bush administration) etc, they certainly don't have to fly planes into a building to get what they want. It's so absurd as to be beyond reproach how absurd it is.

But again, I only started this thread to let those that think there is a conspiracy vent their lunacy so I could see how far it really goes.

And then it hits me - most artists "feel things" rather than rely on "logic" in their creative endeavors. These conspiracy theories really feed that side of the brain and because artists aren't necessarily prone to using logic and reason as their "go to" tools of choice when evaluating certain ideas. They then fall prey to emotionally resonant ideas that are wildly offbase when put through the proper logical lense....

Mind you, I'd like to consider myself an artist, but not to the extent that I lose my faculties of common sense as to how the real world (mostly) works.

rob.

[Nod]

Yep, I live here in the U.S. It's "my country" as you might say. The ridicule that I have for the arguments put forth here are about the conpiracy theories that surround 9/11. Most of the theories that put forth about government being complicit in the attacks are apparently due to all the "holes" in the version(s?) that have been reported so far. many also try to use said hole as proof that there was a conspiracy! This makes me laugh. How about the reason for the "holes" in the version that has been captured to date are there because we simply don't have the data (yet).

Firstly Rob - cheers for the good natured response. Unfortunately it's highly unlikely we are ever going to get any more data - the twin towers site became the biggest example of a 'tampered' crime scene on record. 3000 murders and Bush sells off all the forensics asap. The workers on site categorically stated that they directed recovery of 3 out of 4 black box recorders - the official line is that they were not recovered. The firemen who spoke out shortly afterwards, on any subject from suspected demo charges, bombs in the basements or even the recovery of their fellows were essentially stamped upon by Guiliani's new stooge heading the NYFD. The same Guiliani who abandoned his brand new custom built Emergency Centre in WTC7 on the day in question, to set up operations in a pizza parlour, before the most mysterious building collapse on record took place.

How about the fact that there are completely reasonable physical reasons (corroborated by reputable scientists whose very nature is built on skeptism and historical precedence) for the physics of that day and what happened to the pentagon and how the towers fell?

Sure - we always have to entertain the possibility that wrongful conclusions can be made. But when the coincidences start to mount into the hundreds you'd imagine that the US government would be falling over itself to clear it's name - sadly no. Instead we're given 5 frames of shyte taken 10 ft to the side of 5 frames of shyte that have been available for years along with public statements about quashing the 'miniscule' number of 'conspiracy theorists' - if 66%, according to a recent poll, of New Yorkers believe in Governmental involvement you can imagine what numbers there are around the world. There were at least 3 other civillian cameras close to the flightpath/scene that were grabbed almost immediately afterwards and have never been seen again. Even the ATC data records have been destroyed - perhaps because no one would've believed that a piss poor pilot, who can't even hold a Cessna 172 in a landing pattern, is supposed to have streaked directly towards Dumsfeld's office but, on deciding that the easy course clearly wouldn't please Allah, pulls a kick ass 270 degree 700 ft drop turn (that probably should've stalled the plane given the turn rate) around the Pentagon before bringing the thing in on the deck? I probably shouldn't even mention that I was totally unaware that 757's fold in their wings to narrow the plane's profile down to less than 20ft in expectation of an impact - how exactly does an entire wing (and attached 6 tonne titanium Pratt & Whitney) pass STRAIGHT THROUGH glass windows leaving no discernable damage? Explain the physics to me mate!

As to the Towers there's even more odd stuff. It's pretty clear that the second impact occured on the corner - with the majority of the jet fuel exploding in a large orange fireball outside of the structure. Hence the notion that the main central struts were made unviable by a kerosene or standard temp fire is extremely questionable. Do remember these buildings were constructed to withstand such impacts nevermind a fire. Of course there's also the explosions in the basements, the fact that the firecrews who went up there reported that the fire could be contained with a couple of hoses etc etc...

Everyone that pushes for the conpiracy wants to so fully believe that their world view on governments, corporations, and nations like Isreal are somehow behind the attacks (or were complicit in it).

As I said previously can you explain their behaviour? I can't. The US press scornfully reported dancing in the streets in the Arab Middle East shortly after the attacks - yet next to nothing about 5 Israeli's (again 2 with Mossad links) dancing and filming each other in front of the scene. Trust me I don't think much of either. I at least understand the behaviour in the Middle East - I do not understand the behaviour of the Israelis. Do you?

And this makes ROTFLOL when you think about what the goals might be for such a heinious action (if it were all true)? If the goals were to subvert humanity or citizenship even further (particularly the Bush administration) etc, they certainly don't have to fly planes into a building to get what they want. It's so absurd as to be beyond reproach how absurd it is.

I have to disagree - the dissolution of American, and others, hard won freedoms has been directly brought about by these events. Congress otherwise would never have approved of the likes of pre-emptive nukes, nationwide wiretapping, no right to a civillian or jury trial, kidnapping, torture, murder and terrorism on a mass scale that makes AQ look pathetic. You're right - it's absurd. What's personally more disturbing is that there is clear evidence that the US government subverted MY country , the UK, and others into this though we didn't, unlike the Australians, recieve a monster free trade bribe for standing up to legitimise this policy of obscenity.

But again, I only started this thread to let those that think there is a conspiracy vent their lunacy so I could see how far it really goes. And then it hits me - most artists "feel things" rather than rely on "logic" in their creative endeavors. These conspiracy theories really feed that side of the brain and because artists aren't necessarily prone to using logic and reason as their "go to" tools of choice when evaluating certain ideas. They then fall prey to emotionally resonant ideas that are wildly offbase when put through the proper logical lense....Mind you, I'd like to consider myself an artist, but not to the extent that I lose my faculties of common sense as to how the real world (mostly) works.

An admirable goal I grant you - however most of the people clamouring for a proper investigation, and a complete release of all footage, I'd wager aren't musicians. Don't you think it'd be in their interests to give us everything they have - what possible reason could they have for making our belief in their ever so just cause more difficult?

[Spikee]

Everyone that pushes for the conpiracy wants to so fully believe that their world view on governments, corporations, and nations like Isreal are somehow behind the attacks (or were complicit in it).

How about all people that are willing to accept things as they've been presented, like a lapdog for the gov't, are inbred morons?

Stop generalizing. There are some of us that only give credence to the conspiracy theory because we've examined the data and know that a full conclusion can't be reached.

You're an absolute idiot.

[Jackal and Hyde]

that is a good site. lots of physics and detail. it answered some of the questions the loose change video brought up.

thats a least a few hours worth of readin and rithmatic.

i guess im gonna have to get on it....

heh, quote from site:

Accomplice #2: OK.. We install charges on every floor so that after the planes hit, we blow each floor under the crash floor one by one, very fast to simulate pancaking. We'll let the building burn a while just for effect. This will also give time for the trusses to sag making it LOOK like a fire caused the building to fall.

Accomplice #1: Nice touch...

Accomplice #2: Why, thank you. ...We'll set a charge off in the middle of the building AFTER the top is on it's way down so everyone thinks the puffs of debris coming from the windows are from the tremendous hypodermic needle like pressure blowing debris from the weakest point in the building.

Government: What about the sound of explosions? Isn't that a dead giveaway?

Accomplice #2: No problem, We'll just let them think it's normal electrical explosions like transformers blowing up or the initial concrete and Steel and floors hitting the floors below.

Accomplice #1: Yeah, it could also be the steel columns snapping like twigs from the tremendous weight of the floors above... Don't worry, we have disinformation specialists in Key internet forums.

This is just nonsense. Anyone that knows jack about explosives knows this is garbage. First of all, deep cuts/holes need to be put into every single concrete support column on every floor of a gutted building before shape charges/tnt are put in weakening the shit out of the building itself. Your telling me demolition experts secretly weakened every single support colum of both WTC's and inserted permacord n TNT? A. With no one noticing the 15 weeks of (Super loud) drilling it would have taken on every floor & B. Taking a chance that the buildings might accidently fall down themselves because of massive normal daily use with every support column weakened? pffft And how about that permacord? You know, the thing that sets off the blasting caps? If its severed anywhere at any location, the whole building won't go off. So I'm supposed to believe that a conspiracy was planned where 300 thousand pound airplanes were going to be flown into the buildings (where there were 1,000 cuts/holes dug in the concrete support colums lol) taking a 1 in 2 risk of severing the permacord making the charges not go off in the first place? Thats a pretty bad plan. And the white puffs of smoke coming out some of the windows while the buildings were falling? Yea.... its called pressure. If you've got 10 million tons of steel and material falling down on a building, I'm sure theres going to be a few little "puffs" coming out a window here and there during the process. lmao

[Meef Chaloin]

that is a good site. lots of physics and detail. it answered some of the questions the loose change video brought up.

thats a least a few hours worth of readin and rithmatic.

i guess im gonna have to get on it....

heh, quote from site:

Accomplice #2: OK.. We install charges on every floor so that after the planes hit, we blow each floor under the crash floor one by one, very fast to simulate pancaking. We'll let the building burn a while just for effect. This will also give time for the trusses to sag making it LOOK like a fire caused the building to fall.

Accomplice #1: Nice touch...

Accomplice #2: Why, thank you. ...We'll set a charge off in the middle of the building AFTER the top is on it's way down so everyone thinks the puffs of debris coming from the windows are from the tremendous hypodermic needle like pressure blowing debris from the weakest point in the building.

Government: What about the sound of explosions? Isn't that a dead giveaway?

Accomplice #2: No problem, We'll just let them think it's normal electrical explosions like transformers blowing up or the initial concrete and Steel and floors hitting the floors below.

Accomplice #1: Yeah, it could also be the steel columns snapping like twigs from the tremendous weight of the floors above... Don't worry, we have disinformation specialists in Key internet forums.

This is just nonsense. Anyone that knows jack about explosives knows this is garbage. First of all, deep cuts/holes need to be put into every single concrete support column on every floor of a gutted building before shape charges/tnt are put in weakening the shit out of the building itself. Your telling me demolition experts weakened every single support colum of both WTC's and inserted permacord n TNT? A. With no one noticing the 15 weeks of (Super loud) drilling it would have taken on every floor & B. Taking a chance that the buildings might accidently fall down themselves because of massive normal daily use with every support column weakened? pffft And how about that permacord? You know, the thing that sets off the blasting caps? If its severed anywhere at any location, the whole building won't go off. So I'm supposed to believe that a conspiracy was planned where 300 thousand pound airplanes were going to be flown into the buildings (where there were 1,000 cuts/holes dug in the concrete support colums lol) taking a 1 in 2 risk of severing the permacord making the charges not go off in the first place? Thats a pretty bad plan. And the white puffs of smoke coming out some of the windows while the buildings were falling? Yea.... its called pressure. If you've got 10 million tons of steel and material falling down on a building, I'm sure theres going to be a few little "puffs" coming out a window here and there during the process. lmao

you are talking about commercial and public ways of demolition, if it was possible that the towers were demolished then the people who would need access to do it would easily have access technology that we dont know about. Im not saying your wrong cos i know nothing about explosive but we're not arguing about some construction/demolition company come to do the job, if the theories are even half correct then there's no reason to think that the conventional methods would be used. there's no conspiracy that secret services have technologies that we dont know about.

[Meef Chaloin]

LOL. more israeli conspiracy theorists. Keep'em coming. LOL.

Does someone above dispute that Bin Laden isn't the leader of Al Qaeda? Explain further.

rob.

im sorry rob, as ive said before i dont mean anything personally, im sure you are a cool person, but you're talking codshit. Its not that bin laden is the leader that i dispute but do you know anything about al queda? do you know that they were set up by the american CIA as freedom fighters to combat the russians? again, your talk of iraq clearly demonstrates that you do not know a lot about international relations past what fox news tells you. its very well documented that al queda are a creation of the CIA, dont be biased in your research. and just to reiterate, many people who have posted here are not insinuating any 'grand plan' theory, they are just pointing out facts and common sense, the conclusions are for us all to decide individually, just dont try to deny claims because you disagree with them, look at the wider picture.

[subterFUSE]

How about all people that are willing to accept things as they've been presented, like a lapdog for the gov't, are inbred morons?

That's a bit unfair. It goes both ways, man.

You claim that anyone who beleives the 9/11 commission report is a mindless lapdog. The same could be said of people who watched the conspiracy documentaries, and believe those. They are merely siding with someone else's theory. Just because you feel so strongly that you're right, doesn't make you better, or worse than said "lapdogs".


I see a lot of humor in political threads posted in music forums such as this one, or Global Underground. This is because the posts are always about the same things.... Bush is the devil... America is bad, and must be destroyed.... Corporations have taken over the world.... 9/11 was staged... etc... And anyone who believes differently is an inbred, hick, racist, terrorist, nazi... or any other type of negative label which can be conjured up.

Frankly, I've seen so much of it... I can't help but just dismiss everyone as walking cliches. It's like part of the new world chic. People wear their politics like it's the latest designer clothing. It's just cool to blame America these days.

[Machinesworking]

It's just cool to blame America these days.

What do you expect? We have invaded and toppled a sovereign nation on false pretenses alone. We are supposed to be for freedom, yet we will not leave Iraq simply because the government that the people would elect without our presence would not be pro USA.
Secondly, we are the biggest bully on the block, maybe not the most violent bully, but people get hurt, and if you expect the nerds to like it, then........

Something is wrong with the whole story, sure the conspiracy theories get pretty wild, but the fact that not one plane was scrambled, after being highjacked for well over thirty minutes..... it's BS. Something is wrong here.

[Meef Chaloin]

It's just cool to blame America these days.

its funny that americans say they are proud of their country and have no understanding of why that would provoke reaction from other countries. the average iraqi person probably has no idea of what the american public know/believe but dont you see that if you went to them & said that you were proud of america that they might be a little uptight after the said country has bombed the shit out of it (including depleted uranuim) and left it in a more 3rd world state than it ever was?

Outside of america the country is seen as a power bully and greedy aggressive business.

thats why its 'cool' to blame america, because they have had such a big (negative) influence. its nothing personal, everyone knows its not the citizens so no need to get sensitive about it.

[rapidix]

... it's BS. Something is wrong here.

I agree. Something is wrong. I've seen very few who actually believe the whole story in which the media and government has given us regarding this whole matter. I've seen many more of the opinion things just don't add up. I fall into the ladder category.

I do not fully believe any story because if anyone was a critical thinker they would know there are always at least two sides to every story. A story like this there are thousands.

So how do we find more information? In either direction, pro-America or pro-conspiracy. I am not digging for one side or the other, but I mean come on, this was a huge event. And they are keeping so much from us. A person that fully believes something based on assumptions and opinions should not be trusted. We need hard facts.

Does anybody know how to get this? Are there letter-writings going on? Who do we contact? We need more information, and if you're content with the information and opinions already received, you're already doomed. So where do go from here?

[DeadlyKungFu]

AMERICA FUCK YEAH!!!



It's all about shock, awe, guns and big fucking SUVs.

[subterFUSE]

@ you guys.


I could have scripted your responses.

[DeadlyKungFu]

@ you guys.


I could have scripted your responses.

I already knew that.