OT Bush calls Lebanon A new front for global war on terror

[udp]

well, whether it's true or not, it was over 60 years ago and the far scarier thing is that an American administration has managed to do it now.

I've no fear of the Bush administration. They no doubt will transition the government to the next administration just as has been happening for the last 225+ years. What I do fear is that whether it be here in the US, or anywhere on Earth, is the fact that those who would destroy society are no longer nessecarily governments of other nations, but rather obscure grouping of people. Oklahoma City was carried out by a small faction (no, I don't believe we've caught all involved), so has essentially every terrorist act in the last 40 years. There will always be Evil people or pissed of people, that rather than using civil means to address their grievences they kill their "enemy". So the big question is: What to do with these people? You can't try them; they either make a mockery of the court (Saddam) or they blow up the court. Those of us who just try to live our lives, keep our children safe, and have a little fun along the way, don't know what to do with those who want to kill us for going to work at the World Trade Center, or the Federal Building in OK City. We're only gonna get hit so many times before we start saying to Hell with it all and start supporting massive retaliation. Those people who died didn't die because of one US policy or another, they died because a small group of evil men platted and carried out their act of terror.

lol.

Don't you see the irony in this statement? That everyone feels the same? What about those Iraqi civilains who have watched their children blown to shreds by US bombs? Perhaps the difference is, is that they DID die because a group of 'evil' men carried out an act of 'terror' or rather, they experienced such atrocity directly because of US foriegn policy.

You seem to have adopted all the rhetoric and idioms that the media are currently using; 'evil' and 'terror', these words have little association with reality. You must understand there is really no such thing as evil or good in this situation. There are extremists on both sides, both have a set agenda and both will use violence to impose their agenda on the world around them. Who is actually 'wrong' or 'right' or 'good' or 'evil' really depends on what side your on, or at least what you believe. In which case, the whole 'war on terror' is absolutely insane, there is no wrong or right and there will be no winners or losers in it, just more violence, death, suffering and destruction.

Sorry I see nothing ironical in my statement. I'll grant that Iraq is slightly different than the examples I used (I avoided Iraq for that reason), but at least the US Army usually tries to get civilians out of the way (so did Israel recently) by dropping leaflets to warn that the bombs were coming. They did this much to their own detriment. The US uses UNIFORMED (read red target on back) service personell. I'm not sure what Timothy McVay was wearing when he set off the truck bomb in Oklahoma City, but I bet it wasn't US Army issue. I'm also reasonably sure the men who attacked the US on 9-11-01 were trained to "blend in". This is a long way of saying we can't nessicarily see who are enemy is, they might be anyone in are neighborhood. You can go on all you want about the constitution, but the Governments primary purpose as written into the constitution is to protect its citizens. At time of war, the executive branch is given wide birth to carry out this primary purpose. I for one am grateful. The questions still remain: 1) Would terrorists leave us alone if we brought all our military home? 2) What do you suggest we do with terrorists?

[zfigz]

What do you suggest we do with terrorists?

Vote them out?

[knotkranky]

What I am saying is that Hizbolla are a militant force that has infiltrated and now partly controls Lebanon.

No, Hizbollah, with the exception of the rocket attacks into Israel, is a legitimate resistance group under international law.

And it's easy to post pictures of children posing as martyrs, but if you want to be fair you would post the pictures of young Israeli children decorating artillery shells and missiles before they are fired into populated civilian areas.

And maybe you should put things into perspective. Of-course it is a terrible tragedy when a young person blows him or herself up in a crowded cafe killing a bunch of civilians but is it not tragic when an American made Israeli helicopter or fighter jet levels an apartment block or refugee camp and kills a bunch of innocent people? PLO, Hamas, Hizbollah, PFLP, whatever, these people do not have the luxury of Abrams tanks, Apache Helicopter gun-ships, remote controlled armed drone planes, 105 mm howitzers, F-16 fighter planes, cluster bombs, or white phosphorus.

it does not mean that I think it is "justified" to blow up a crowded passenger bus, it is no more justified then it is to bomb a convoy of refugees after you have granted them passage. it means I have taken the time to consider the situation from both angles.

Why is it so hard to believe that Israel is maybe not fighting for its life, but is an aggressive criminal nation? You know, recognizing that or believing that does not automatically mean that you think hizbollah or whatever other resistance group are saints and it does not mean you are calling for the destruction of israel. it really doesn't, trust me. I know.

It means maybe you understand that the real reason people out there, in the third world, are so pissed off is not because they "hate freedom" (like my President is so quick to tell you) but maybe because they just want a little bit of freedom of their own. it means maybe you undertand the hypocritical, racist policies that are affecting people in the third world.

it means maybe you understand that there is a difference between the people and the policies, between the culture and the power center.

Trust me, it's just as ok to question the policies of the United States and Israel as it is to question the policies of iran or Syria. it doesn't mean you support "terrorism" or hate "the jews" it means you don't see the world in this bullshit black and white, epic struggle of good vs. evil that so many others do. it means you've taken the time to research not only the atrocities committed by "the enemy" that is printed in every American paper, but that you've also taken the time to investigate the atrocities committed by the "good guys" as well.

If more people would take the time to do that, rather than regurgitating what is fed to them by, forgive my rhetoric, the state/corporate sponsored propaganda machine( because that is exactly what it is, free press my ass), then maybe more people would begin to question these policies and then maybe we would see a real change.

Then maybe what the elite fears more than anything else would happen, "the great beast" (the people) would wake up from their sofas, couches, and easy chairs and not just call for, but demand a change.

Whoa, well said. Thank you. With that, i'm out on this thread. And so should everybody else.

cheers

[stinky]

but if you want to be fair you would post the pictures of young Israeli children decorating artillery shells and missiles before they are fired into populated civilian areas.

please post these pictures...

[glu]

please post these pictures...

[glu]

http://www.nogw.com/download/2006_il_ki ... 0shells%22

[sweetjesus]

I just can't believe you would propose something so ASS BACKWARDS.

It's not backwards. It's called being realistic. We're trying to stop terrorists. Terrorists tend to be Islamic males, betwee.

you are full of shit. shut the fuck up and dont spread shit like that.

i'm 17-25 male, from islamic background and had my fair share of being called a terrorist coz of people like you. Here's a list of terrorist organisations for you... go analyze that and tell me how many young arabs like to play the terrorism game http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_te ... anisations

[eyeknow]

let's all hate each other and keep fueling the fire, after all, live sucks and we can't make music!

In case you have not noticed, there is no winning this debate, or any other debate because all sides think the other side is stupid/wrong/idiotic/etc.

Here is one constant, any form of violence, and I am speaking of unprovoked, is wrong. We can debate things all we want, but in the end it is improper actions that will do us in.

[glu]

I agree..

but there still should be no tolerance for racial profiling as a viable option for peace. It goes against history.

I am only here for Live and




Made some great beats today. Despite my computer's technical setbacks... I took a walk through Town Lake here in ATX.

Happy to be aLive.

[eyeknow]

sweeeeeeet, dude, rock on!

[muscleandhate]

Well, it just seems to me that the media and the government has suceeded in some of you by setting up this association between muslims, islam and terrorists. This is simply not true, most muslims only want the same thing everyone else does; to live their lives peacefully. As someone else stated quite correctly, people need to stop seeing the world single-mindedly as either 'good' or 'evil'.

[M. Bréqs]

...You must understand there is really no such thing as evil or good in this situation. There are extremists on both sides, both have a set agenda and both will use violence to impose their agenda on the world around them. Who is actually 'wrong' or 'right' or 'good' or 'evil' really depends on what side your on, or at least what you believe.

Well, I disagree. There is good and evil. But I won't argue with you on that, since neither of us will convince the other. BUT...

In which case, the whole 'war on terror' is absolutely insane, there is no wrong or right and there will be no winners or losers in it, just more violence, death, suffering and destruction.

But this point I shall challenge. The war on terror is not insane. Let's pretend that you are right (which you are not) and that there is no good and evil, but that it is only competing interests and that good and evil are relative. Well, I'll say that since Jihadists and radical muslims are my enemy, then anybody who opposes them are on my side. Therefore, it is in my best interest to aggressively target radical Islam as often and as violently as possible.

Israel poses no threat to me. The United States poses no threat to me. In fact, the continued economic superiority and overwhelming military might of the United States directly serves my interest by keeping me safe, and continuing my afluent lifestyle. Since you have access to the internet, you are almost automatically better off than the majority of the world's population who don't have any access. If you're a North American or a European, it is SELF DESTRUCTIVE to oppose the United States and its allies (including Israel). It is counter to your own safety, affluence and comfort.

...Let's assume that the war on terror is actually only "for oil" or to militarily / culturally dominate the globe. A steady supply of oil and overwhelming military force are good for any people to have, and since I'm a North American, the current war benefits my society.

Therefore, supporting the war on terror is perfectly sane.

I am nobody's Dhimmi, and I will gladly let my nation (and my nation's allies) kill as many people as necessary to keep it that way. Those who threaten my security must be eliminated, and thank goodness that my side has the economy, and technology to make it happen. All we lack is the cohesive willpower.

[M. Bréqs]

If more people would take the time to do that, rather than regurgitating what is fed to them by, forgive my rhetoric, the state/corporate sponsored propaganda machine( because that is exactly what it is, free press my ass), then maybe more people would begin to question these policies and then maybe we would see a real change.

Then maybe what the elite fears more than anything else would happen, "the great beast" (the people) would wake up from their sofas, couches, and easy chairs and not just call for, but demand a change.

All you would have is the replacement of one source of propaganda with another.

And as for "the great best" (the people), well it's not a cohesive organization. I'm one of the people, and I'm quite content with the balance of world power as it is, since it directly benefits me. The whole purpose of casting things in black and white terms is just that: What benefits me is good, what threatens my affluence, security and comfort is evil.

What could be more simple than that?

...And when you and a PORTION of your "great beast" demands change, the other PORTION (including me) will oppose you.

[M. Bréqs]

If more people would take the time to do that, rather than regurgitating what is fed to them by, forgive my rhetoric, the state/corporate sponsored propaganda machine( because that is exactly what it is, free press my ass), then maybe more people would begin to question these policies and then maybe we would see a real change.

...Remember though, some may fall victim to propaganda, but many on the side of the United States are simply rationalists. I have read many, many "alternative" news sources, and I can honestly fathom both sides of the debate. I actually acknowledge the propaganda of the Right, but I also see the propaganda of the Left. To me, I have chosen the Right viewpoint (on about 75% of issues) out of pure self interest. But I choose the Left on the remainder of issues, because they are in my self interest as well...

Don't underestimate the number of people in your "great beast" who are not actually blinded by propaganda, but simply understand where their interest lies.

[elemental]

What I am saying is that Hizbolla are a militant force that has infiltrated and now partly controls Lebanon.

No, Hizbollah, with the exception of the rocket attacks into Israel, is a legitimate resistance group under international law.

And it's easy to post pictures of children posing as martyrs, but if you want to be fair you would post the pictures of young Israeli children decorating artillery shells and missiles before they are fired into populated civilian areas.

And maybe you should put things into perspective. Of-course it is a terrible tragedy when a young person blows him or herself up in a crowded cafe killing a bunch of civilians but is it not tragic when an American made Israeli helicopter or fighter jet levels an apartment block or refugee camp and kills a bunch of innocent people? PLO, Hamas, Hizbollah, PFLP, whatever, these people do not have the luxury of Abrams tanks, Apache Helicopter gun-ships, remote controlled armed drone planes, 105 mm howitzers, F-16 fighter planes, cluster bombs, or white phosphorus.

it does not mean that I think it is "justified" to blow up a crowded passenger bus, it is no more justified then it is to bomb a convoy of refugees after you have granted them passage. it means I have taken the time to consider the situation from both angles.

Why is it so hard to believe that Israel is maybe not fighting for its life, but is an aggressive criminal nation? You know, recognizing that or believing that does not automatically mean that you think hizbollah or whatever other resistance group are saints and it does not mean you are calling for the destruction of israel. it really doesn't, trust me. I know.

It means maybe you understand that the real reason people out there, in the third world, are so pissed off is not because they "hate freedom" (like my President is so quick to tell you) but maybe because they just want a little bit of freedom of their own. it means maybe you undertand the hypocritical, racist policies that are affecting people in the third world.

it means maybe you understand that there is a difference between the people and the policies, between the culture and the power center.

Trust me, it's just as ok to question the policies of the United States and Israel as it is to question the policies of iran or Syria. it doesn't mean you support "terrorism" or hate "the jews" it means you don't see the world in this bullshit black and white, epic struggle of good vs. evil that so many others do. it means you've taken the time to research not only the atrocities committed by "the enemy" that is printed in every American paper, but that you've also taken the time to investigate the atrocities committed by the "good guys" as well.

If more people would take the time to do that, rather than regurgitating what is fed to them by, forgive my rhetoric, the state/corporate sponsored propaganda machine( because that is exactly what it is, free press my ass), then maybe more people would begin to question these policies and then maybe we would see a real change.

Then maybe what the elite fears more than anything else would happen, "the great beast" (the people) would wake up from their sofas, couches, and easy chairs and not just call for, but demand a change.

Excellent post. Nice 1.