who do you report cracked software to for ableton?

[Dexes]

It is literally like walking into a car store and taking the latest BMW with you without paying.

To put it simply: NO!

The BMW shop owner payed BMW for the car and as soon as someone steels it he can't sell it to anyone else. 100% Loss

With pirated software/music/games etc, the original product is still there to be sold to anyone willing and/or able to pay for it.
The only loss is if the person who pirated it would have payed for it had he not recieved the pirated version. And for the vast majority of people using pirated software the this is not the case. And as we've seen by many responses in this thread quite a few of those who would buy, do later go on and pay for the product (many would not even have ever payed for it had they not pirated in the first place)

I'm not trying to give all pirates a clean white vest, but it's this blantant jelous preschool "he got it more easily than me, boohoo!" behaiviour that really annoys me. And for those complaining about the prices being increase or dongles introduced. Complaining about the pirates is barking up the wrong tree, get the companies to hire people who know how the market works today, and not some people who got their knowlege several decades ago.

Exampes of how "pirating" (well not quite, but more or less) helped sales:
Monty python put loads of their sketches on youtube for everyone to watch as often as they want, whenever they want, whereever they want. And within 4 months their DVD sales on amazon went up by 16,000 % (in words thats: sixteen thousand percent)

[georgeblunt]

It is literally like walking into a car store and taking the latest BMW with you without paying.

To put it simply: NO!

The BMW shop owner payed BMW for the car and as soon as someone steels it he can't sell it to anyone else. 100% Loss

With pirated software/music/games etc, the original product is still there to be sold to anyone willing and/or able to pay for it.
The only loss is if the person who pirated it would have payed for it had he not recieved the pirated version. And for the vast majority of people using pirated software the this is not the case.

Well.. you DID read the rest of my post, didn't you?

I'm not trying to give all pirates a clean white vest, but it's this blantant jelous preschool "he got it more easily than me, boohoo!" behaiviour that really annoys me.

You know, I am a software developer myself. Excuse me, if it is hard for me, if people like you don't understand, that pirating software isn't a particular desirable goal for my business (or anyone else's in this area for that matter). It's got nothing to do with jelousy.

Moreover, I am working on a lot of open source projects and I am a huge supporter of the free software movement. BUT that doesn't make it right, to steal commercial software. It's that simple.

And for those complaining about the prices being increase or dongles introduced. Complaining about the pirates is barking up the wrong tree, get the companies to hire people who know how the market works today, and not some people who got their knowlege several decades ago.

We 100% agree here. Yay!
What I am trying to do, is to educate people. I want them to know, that stealing is just bad, even if it's from a broken business model. I'd be happy, if people would just understand, why the people developing software you think, you can get for free, might have tiny concerns about this way of thinking. That's all. And it's not easy, as the replies in this thread show.

Exampes of how "pirating" (well not quite, but more or less) helped sales:
Monty python put loads of their sketches on youtube for everyone to watch as often as they want, whenever they want, whereever they want. And within 4 months their DVD sales on amazon went up by 16,000 % (in words thats: sixteen thousand percent)

I don't see, where this is an example for anything discussed here. As you say: Monty Python put those videos on there themselves. It's got nothing to do with piracy.


Oh.. and please don't take my tone too personal. I don't want to flame anyone in particular and in the end, it's everyone's own business. I neither judge you nor anyone else in this thread just based on this particular matter. I know, it's a complicated topic, that can't be easily put into black and white categories.
And please read the rest of my last post to understand, why I think, that it's a problem, when young people, who couldn't afford the software they pirate anyways, download commercial software for free.

OK.. no more car analogies, they always lead to missunderstandings.

[ewistrand]

The problem is the way of thinking, this kid develops, when doing so.

Exactly.

It learns, that it is a different thing to go to a store and steal a magazine and to download cracked software.
In the first case it knows, that it might be caught and face serious consequences. .
In the latter case, it gets the impression, that it's ok, because everybody is doing it, and it's "just software".

The last thing, that I want this kid to read on the internet is, that it is OK to crack commercial software, because it isn't "real" stealing and it is ok, if you can't afford to buy it anyways - or even that the company might benifit from it in the long run. That's just an assumption and no basis to act upon.

Well stated.

ew

[Dexes]

Sorry George, I did read the rest of your post, I was just too lazy to ga back and quote the dozens of other post that hat similar analogies without taking into consideration that there are any effects appart from the negative ones.

And I did post a few pages back, that producers of any content (not necessarily the publishers) have every right to be pissed off by pirates, but paying costemers complaining is either plain jelousy, or the fear of having to deal with sanctions due to the fact that a companies marketing advisors, etc are simply not up to date and use analogies (about stealing physical goods) and calculating their loss by multipling # of illigal downloads by retail price of the product and then putting that sum ontop of the price everyone else has to pay.

To monty python:

Matt Brittin, UK country director for Google, said Monty Python was an "interesting example" of how copyright holders could benefit from YouTube.

Speaking at the Media Summit 2009 in London today, Brittin said Video ID let copyright holders identify their content on YouTube and then decide what they want done with it. Many rights holders opt for complete removal but the Monty Python team decided to create an official channel on YouTube instead.

So even though they did put it up themselves, it was a reaction to the prirated content allready up.

To kid's attitudes: I've allready given up on anyone below the age of 25 (and above the age of 35 as a matter of fact...and 90% of the people in between...that's one of the downparts of studying Sociology. You learn so many ways that our society is allready messed up and that it just keeps going downhill at breakneckspeed. + living in a country where 30% of the population voted for parties that invite people who deny the holocaust to their meetings, and trash the presumption of innocence for asylum seekers...only hope is there's enough people around who use their brains to think and not only as a windbreaker between their ears. But now I'm beginning to go seriously OT so I'll just leave it at that)

[Sphinx]

but paying costemers complaining is either plain jelousy, or the fear of having to deal with sanctions...ontop of the price everyone else has to pay.

This one "angle" is the most fascinating to me!

~ "You're just jealous because you had to pay for your copy, whereas I was sneaky/unscrupulous enough to steal it...don't be 'jelbus', dude!"

~ "You're just mad because the increased costs of sale (r&d due due to fighting piracy, etc.) are passed through to you, the PAYING customer!"

Sorry...just as I am not "jealous" of the guy who shoplifted a DVD from a store, not "jealous" of the investment advisor who fleeced millions from his clients, not "jealous" of the guy in the next department who spent his day on the clock perusing porn. "Jealous" isn't the operative word - "bemused" or "disgusted" would probably be more appropriate.

Live is a great product - if I have to pay Ableton more for their product to keep them sufficiently profitable in order to keep making a better product - I will do so. Hell, I'd have NO problem with easily paying $1,000.00 for it...because I love their product, and I think their corporate motives are positive...providing a GREAT product to enable musical creativity. If I have to pay a premium due to REAL costs to fight piracy on the part of Ableton, so be it.

People can twist this "issue six ways to Sunday" - but the bottom line is: stealing is wrong.

[dredd i knight]

The problem is the way of thinking, this kid develops, when doing so.
It learns, that it is a different thing to go to a store and steal a magazine and to download cracked software.
In the first case it knows, that it might be caught and face serious consequences.
In the latter case, it gets the impression, that it's ok, because everybody is doing it, and it's "just software".

agreed!
@sphinx: no i havent done any research into this other than the anecdotal, and frankly why would i, like i said its an opinion. and no i'm not making excuses for anybody, i just dont believe its as major a crime as some people are making out. It is a different type of theft though, and the evidence on this thread alone goes a helluva long way to proving my point; sooo many people have held up their hands as crack users, and are now proud to talk about their shady past...kinda like NA

[georgeblunt]

paying costemers complaining is either plain jelousy, or the fear of having to deal with sanctions due to the fact that a companies marketing advisors, etc are simply not up to date and use analogies (about stealing physical goods) and calculating their loss by multipling # of illigal downloads by retail price of the product and then putting that sum ontop of the price everyone else has to pay.

Everyone, who is remotely sane knows, that this calculation is WAY off. I never said anything like that (I know, you didn't claim this, I am just saying it to make it clear). The music industry is the king of this stupid calculation.

But not counting every single download as a loss doesn't mean, that there isn't ANY loss. The topic is just too complex and not solvable by a simple formular. That's because I was talking mainly about the ethical question. And I'll stand by my word, when I say, I just cant see any justification of cracking software.

So even though [Monty Python] did put it up themselves, it was a reaction to the prirated content allready up.

I know the story. But here it's the owners of the material who decided to use the new internet economy to their benefit - which was hell of a clever and awesome move by the way. And that's the point. The owner decides. If Ableton decides, that they don't want people to freely download their cracked software, it's fair enough to respect this decision and not make your own law, because you are assuming, that it might be good for them.

To kid's attitudes: I've allready given up on anyone below the age of 25 (and above the age of 35 as a matter of fact...and 90% of the people in between...

Never loose hope, we all play our small part.
For example, at a train station: young people keep pushing others to reach the entrance first, not looking after old people or children. I COULD do the same to them, because that's what they do and the'll never change. What will they learn?
OR I could say "sorry" to one of them, if I accidently step on their feet and move a step back to let them pass. I wonder, what would make a deeper impact on them, and what each reaction would result in. It's the little things, that sometimes stick out and make you think.

Same thing when saying things on a forum. I don't want to be another person telling others, that it's ok to crack software. I want to be an example of the opposite, not impersonating a police man or a lawyer, but a normal person just making music and doing the right thing. (yeah.. sounds dramatic, but that's what I think).

[gzifcak]

People can twist this "issue six ways to Sunday" - but the bottom line is: stealing is wrong.

it sounds like most of you are in the UK, where it might be different, but in US law there is a definite distinction between copyright infringement and theft.

[Dalibor Loncar]

there once was ... what was no. 8?



amen

sorry, couldn´t resist.

[MrYellow]

Ben - as I said: please show me non-anecdotal evidence that software developers benefit from piracy. Surely you can back your hypothesis up with some sort of valid study - thanks!

I'll put my years in marketing against your years in accounting anyday

How many bands became popular through tape swapping?
I'm still buying CDs that were the tapes I heard as a kid for free.

edit: oh btw asking for a peer-reviewed study into this highly commercial and secret topic is retarded..... seriously.

-Ben

[MrYellow]

Good example of how the argument of "piracy makes things more expensive" is flawed.

When the price point of computer games goes up so does the piracy. The higher
you stretch the margin, the higher the demand for piracy. Piracy may or
may not increase the price, but the price increases the piracy much more
effectively. This is just a bit of spin by the industry to make customers
accept the ever inflating prices, they'll charge whatever you're stupid
enough to pay. Regardless of piracy levels.

Really I see people that get stuck in this arguement as being in a paradigm
that is on the wrong side of the death of the record industry. The trick is
to work this reality into your business so that it helps rather then hinders.
Any smart software company does this. Any smart musician does this.
Any record company that still exists is trying very hard to do this.

If your piracy levels are high, then you're popular, you've made it,
money will be the least of your worries. Good chance the piracy helped
you get there during some stage of the brand growth.

-Ben

[Sphinx]

Ben - as I said: please show me non-anecdotal evidence that software developers benefit from piracy. Surely you can back your hypothesis up with some sort of valid study - thanks!

I'll put my years in marketing against your years in accounting anyday

How many bands became popular through tape swapping?
I'm still buying CDs that were the tapes I heard as a kid for free.

edit: oh btw asking for a peer-reviewed study into this highly commercial and secret topic is retarded..... seriously.

-Ben

Nice - can't back your shit up, so you resort to politically-incorrect name calling. Surely you can find one economist or financial guru of note that supports your theory...oh, sorry - it's fuckin' "top secret"

[dinaiz]

Good example of how the argument of "piracy makes things more expensive" is flawed.

When the price point of computer games goes up so does the piracy. The higher
you stretch the margin, the higher the demand for piracy. Piracy may or
may not increase the price, but the price increases the piracy much more
effectively. This is just a bit of spin by the industry to make customers
accept the ever inflating prices, they'll charge whatever you're stupid
enough to pay. Regardless of piracy levels.

Really I see people that get stuck in this arguement as being in a paradigm
that is on the wrong side of the death of the record industry. The trick is
to work this reality into your business so that it helps rather then hinders.
Any smart software company does this. Any smart musician does this.
Any record company that still exists is trying very hard to do this.

If your piracy levels are high, then you're popular, you've made it,
money will be the least of your worries. Good chance the piracy helped
you get there during some stage of the brand growth.

-Ben

Amen

Sphinx wrote:
Ben - as I said: please show me non-anecdotal evidence that software developers benefit from piracy. Surely you can back your hypothesis up with some sort of valid study - thanks!

[

Yeah sure, so many people are busy right now counting how many people cracked live before buying it
Seriously, Sphinx, I see your point, but I would never have bought live suite 8 if I hadn't cracked 7. I'm sure I'm not the only one in this case ...

Now when you say stealing is wrong, you're right, but you forget that when you steal a car, the seller doesn't have a car anymore. When you "steal" software, the developers still have the software .

That's the same with everything non-material, unless you steal an idea which is not copyrighted and then you copyright it

[MrYellow]

Calling you an accountant is name calling?

Ok so you will only accept it if you hear from an economist
or financial guru because that's your peer group. I'll take
the multitude of posts on this thread and the many companies
I've seen purchase bulk software licenses on the suggestions
of their tech kid pirates who use it at home.

Asking for a study into this is like the water4gas scammers
who ask for proof their thing doesn't work, or for people who
want you to try to disprove god. It's just not an arguement
that makes sense.

Who would fund such research?
Would this source of funding taint the results?
So why doesn't this research exist?
Who would even want such research?
You expecting torrent kids to fund it?

You're asking me to provide research into something that doesn't
need researching and doesn't need proof. It's just a fact of life,
piracy exists and the companies that have strategies for living
with it come out on top. Hard to understand?

-Ben

[Sphinx]

Frankly, I can't believe I was foolish enough to jump into the fray...Ben - we can argue the economic impact of software THEFT until we're both blue in the face - you can offer your anecdotal evidence as a marketing guy, I can argue as a financial guy who has dealt with this - from "penny-ante mom's-basement-dwelling software pirates" to multi-million dollar software cloning debacles. You see the thieves as an economic opportunity; I see them as a morally corrupt segment of our society who justify in their small minds that dishonesty is ok "on the technicality" of software tech.

I'm not going to change your mind, and you are certainly not going to change mine....like every thread that's ever been done on this subject, it devolves into one big circle-jerk....and a colossal waste of time for all involved. I'd rather spend that time talking about the thing I love most: making music!

Peace,

JW