Ableton Forum

Sage wrote:

DrXparaMental wrote:If you aren't going to do anything, have no plan, can't supply any real substantiation, what do you have other than OPINION and HOT AIR at this point? It's all just commentary based on your feelings.

So are you basing all this on your feelings. If illegal immigration is costing American tax payers $10.4 billion, it's actually costing you nothing in reality!
Look at how much has been spent on the illegal war in Iraq for a start, $10.4 billion wouldn't have lasted any more than a month.


It's like people in the UK bitching about the royal family and how taxpayer's money goes on them, at most it costs the tax payer less than 50p each, so if we didn't the royal family, i'd be a whole chocolate bar better off every year...

starving student wrote: this isn't true Doc, he was cutting through resistance by giving your own supported facts whether accurate or not the benefit of the doubt and basing a counter argument on them, the thinking is that a reasonable person wouldn't be mad at their own facts iow based on your facts the imigration is small peanuts compared to the big problems we are facing financialy and this is a financial debate now because you have been basing your angst about the imigration issue on mostly if not all about the financial burnden they represent. Lm is simply asking you to scream louder at larger financial burdens because not to do so makes it look like you have another agenda. I'm intrested in what you have to say about the larger financial burndens that demand more of a imediate response in our society as well. this is not a trick question, is it about the money or are you secretly hiding another reason that's more important to you. btw my post here is not about mudlsinging it's about what each of our real issues are and if yours is money then *the argument that LM is raising with you should be of great intrest. maybe you thought that illegals caused the majority of financial burnden and have them at the top of your list of problems to solve, maybe now you are intrested in looking closer and seeing that there are much worse financial burndens that deserve our anger and attention first, you know like a doctor making sure that vital organs are ok before minor scrapes and bruises, I'd like to know your thoughts too

sublimelobc wrote:$10,400,000,000 = The US taxpayer cost per year for hosting brown skinned humans living here illegally.
http://www.cis.org/articles/2004/fiscalexec.html


$100,000,000,000 = The US taxpayer cost per year for the most wealthy US citizens to evade paying taxes by holding their assets in offshore accounts and not being held accountable for their tax liability. (I'm guessing few of this bunch would be brown skinned)
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB121624391105859731.html


DrXparaMental- This quick search took me about a minute, this should provide you with 10 times the anger that illegals living here give you.....feel free to vent here on the forum, and I'm sure you will find little opposition to spending your energy in such fashion. Why? Well, if you don't know by now, you'll probably never know.

Honestly, can you really say that the "cost to the taxpayer" is your only motivation here? If so, then obviously your time would be much better spent going after bigger fish.

You keep trying to make the point that this is an issue of immigrants entering illegally.....(you completely ignore the fact that our ancestors all entered with virtually no regulation, and that it's all but impossible for somebody to legally enter the US to find a better life now) Ok, regardless of the aforementioned logical argument, you still think that your issue is only about the fact that Pedro down the road crossed the border illegally? Do you realize that at different times in the past, the US government has granted amnesty to people who entered into the country illegally? If there was a migrant worker program that allowed foreign workers to enter legally into the country, pay taxes and contribute to society...do you honestly think that we would still have people risking their lives to enter into the country illegally?

Why did the pilgrims leave Europe? To seek a better life, more opportunities and freedom and less oppression by government, right? When the 13 former british colonies fought for independence and unjust taxation without representation did they do so against the law of the land? Hell yeah they did, and why?...because what is current "law" at any given time doesn't mean that it is for the benefit of the citizens. Laws can change, they OFTEN do....especially laws concerning issues such as immigration....so why is this issue seems to be so obviously NOT about the fact that people are breaking a law and entering illegally into the US and costing the taxpayers 10 billion a year, rather this seems to be an issue about brown men "robbing you" of 10 billion dollars a year while the richest americans that are probably mostly white rob you 10 times that much a year by evading taxes does little to stir you up. (Hell, they don't even offer you a chance for the most beautiful landscaping in the neighborhood and a Saturday free of clipping the lawn)

And one more point about breaking the law, have you ever sparked a J DrX? Have you ever done anything illegal, or are you a model citizen? Think about the big picture here, and not just how to get rid of the funny speaking family down the road.

DrXparaMental wrote: The point *IS that illegal immigration is a VERY bad reality that results in a VERY serious form democratic decay. It HURTS all of the legitimate members (the people, not the government)of the US community. Illegal immigration serves to constantly dilute and undermine the the power of the collective whole to influence it's government and maintain a defined level of participatory continuity of active membership. It's a very potential form of divide and conquer that further serves to rob the clear influence of a people's legitimate collective and those directives derived from mass opinion of that collective. That collective is supposed to be our bargaining chip in an attempt to maintain a non sovereign monarchy. In short, it undermines what little is left of our fast failing democracy.

DrXparaMental wrote:OK, HB I will make this quick because I already anticipated the notion that this list of FACTS would be discredited based on POLITICAL orientation.

First off, answer me these questions if you would be so kind.

1.) Are these FACTS accurate or not?

2.) Can you please substantiate the implication that you made concerning the LIST of facts I provided, not an article BTW, as being supplied by what you have referred to as a "racially motivated" base of ideology and operation?

3.) How does this list of FACTS, and not biases BTW, stop or negate a logical convinced perspective based on the above substantiation that I am sure you will supply? In other words, how do FACTS lie or cheat as an indication of reality?

Thanks!

fishmonkey wrote:

DrXparaMental wrote: The point *IS that illegal immigration is a VERY bad reality that results in a VERY serious form democratic decay. It HURTS all of the legitimate members (the people, not the government)of the US community. Illegal immigration serves to constantly dilute and undermine the the power of the collective whole to influence it's government and maintain a defined level of participatory continuity of active membership. It's a very potential form of divide and conquer that further serves to rob the clear influence of a people's legitimate collective and those directives derived from mass opinion of that collective. That collective is supposed to be our bargaining chip in an attempt to maintain a non sovereign monarchy. In short, it undermines what little is left of our fast failing democracy.

really? please explain...

according to you, by what mechanisms or processes does this happen?

and can you please try and explain it minus the psuedo-intellectual waffle words?

fishmonkey wrote:

DrXparaMental wrote: The point *IS that illegal immigration is a VERY bad reality that results in a VERY serious form democratic decay. It HURTS all of the legitimate members (the people, not the government)of the US community. Illegal immigration serves to constantly dilute and undermine the the power of the collective whole to influence it's government and maintain a defined level of participatory continuity of active membership. It's a very potential form of divide and conquer that further serves to rob the clear influence of a people's legitimate collective and those directives derived from mass opinion of that collective. That collective is supposed to be our bargaining chip in an attempt to maintain a non sovereign monarchy. In short, it undermines what little is left of our fast failing democracy.

really? please explain...

according to you, by what mechanisms or processes does this happen?

and can you please try and explain it minus the psuedo-intellectual waffle words?

fishmonkey wrote:"Lies, damned lies, and statistics."

Homebelly wrote:

DrXparaMental wrote:OK, HB I will make this quick because I already anticipated the notion that this list of FACTS would be discredited based on POLITICAL orientation.

First off, answer me these questions if you would be so kind.

1.) Are these FACTS accurate or not?

2.) Can you please substantiate the implication that you made concerning the LIST of facts I provided, not an article BTW, as being supplied by what you have referred to as a "racially motivated" base of ideology and operation?

3.) How does this list of FACTS, and not biases BTW, stop or negate a logical convinced perspective based on the above substantiation that I am sure you will supply? In other words, how do FACTS lie or cheat as an indication of reality?

Thanks!

Well..
I'm gonna have to beg to differ on this one.
The figures mentioned may, or may not be FACTS.
Its kind of hard to tell because the message they are being used to convey is most definitely BIASED.
They also don't give us a link or way of verifying their findings for our selves other than telling us that they come from
the Census Bureau, and they probably do, but have you read these Census Bureau reports?
I have had to read some for my job, they are heavy going and are quite often loaded with foot notes explaining
how the data is often a long long way from being conclusive.
You also make the point of telling sublimelobc that the immigration issue isn't about "Brown skinned people"
and yet you continue to use information to back up your point of view that constantly asserts that it is.
Most of these articles and opinion pieces start out innocuously enough, but all of them waste no time in
blaming the "Latino's" and other assorted "Brown people". Hell, one of them even takes a shot at the Chinese.
Once or twice you have also tried to make the reassurance that your outrage is not racially motivated but is based on
the *COST of illegal immigration. Fare enough, except that also makes me wonder if you have read any of the articles you
have linked to, or looked into who are running the sites these articles are hosted on, because the ones i bothered to read
and look further into all seem to be advocating that the US should be closing its doors to ALL immigration, as it is a
real threat to "The American way of life" and other assorted nationalistic and xenophobic phrases.
One or two of them even go to great lengths to explain that LEGAL immigration is actually more costly than ILLEGAL immigration.

I agree with fishmonkey also.
You need to drop the colorful language.

Any how..
I think its time to drop out of this thread now...

DrXparaMental wrote:

fishmonkey wrote:"Lies, damned lies, and statistics."

Substantiate - There is a word for you Honey. Look that one up and get back with me and REALITY.

DrXparaMental wrote:

fishmonkey wrote:

DrXparaMental wrote: The point *IS that illegal immigration is a VERY bad reality that results in a VERY serious form democratic decay. It HURTS all of the legitimate members (the people, not the government)of the US community. Illegal immigration serves to constantly dilute and undermine the the power of the collective whole to influence it's government and maintain a defined level of participatory continuity of active membership. It's a very potential form of divide and conquer that further serves to rob the clear influence of a people's legitimate collective and those directives derived from mass opinion of that collective. That collective is supposed to be our bargaining chip in an attempt to maintain a non sovereign monarchy. In short, it undermines what little is left of our fast failing democracy.

really? please explain...

according to you, by what mechanisms or processes does this happen?

and can you please try and explain it minus the psuedo-intellectual waffle words?

So in other words, you are above the use of dictionary? Weak!