Logic 9 out!

[Sage]

I'd like also to know how is the live+logic going with your cpu (what computer specs you got?)

I'm using a Macbook with 4GB RAM and Live rewired into Logic is fine.


I hardly use Logic anywhere near as much as I do Live at the moment.

[supamonsta]

thanks Sage

sorry for my bad english understanding, but do you mean you use logic quite as much as live these times, or that you use live much more than logic?

cheers

EDIT:

speaking of rewire, I've got a question:

is it possible to have live rewired, then route audio tracks to logic, AND midi data from live's midi tracks too?

that way I could sketch the first steps of the song in live's session view (a few midi clips for, say, the bassline and main lead, and a few midi clips in midi tracks with impulse devices), then route the drums tracks to logic for recording, WHILE recording the midi sequences into midi tracks in logic so as to further edit them with logic's midi tools (that means I've got 2 softwares sending midi datas to my external synths...)

oops, really confuse, sorry,, thinking out loud

I'm more and more thinking of a supersetup with live (sketchpad for midi, audio mangling copy/paste glitchystuff, live gigs supertool) + Logic (further midi edition, mix automations...)...

(+ harrison mixbus as a 3rd layer for final mixing stage, but I guess it's a bit too much for a first approach... )

perhap's shall I sell mixbus if I get logic...

[SubFunk]

comp specs,

MBP 2.16ghz, 4gb ram, OSX 10.6.2

i never use Logic / Live rewired, it's the one or other...

i guess i use Live a bit more... but that again varies actually... it really depends on what i do...
when i make/create music then definitely Live, when i do work for others, mixing, editing... then surely Logic.
i prefer mixing in logic by far... it has less to do with the quality of the DAW itself, plugs yeah... but that is a different story...
it has to do with the workflow, functions, and mainly layout... i like the overview way better in logic if i have a lot of tracks to work with...
being able to blend in an out midi vs audio tracks on the spot, etc. the list is just endless....

it is all boiling down to very personal preferences and well some plugs which are still a cracker in Logic. of course you can get them for Live as well, but why should i spend money on 3rd party stuff, if i already have what i need within logic?

about the movie / TV project:

the workflow is simply the overview of the session view and the way Live names tracks automatically
i have one track per filmed scene, name the track after the scene and Live numbers every new recorded slot with a running number which is matching the takes...

because of the quick overview i can jump easy within a split second to any take, proper named without effort and the director can have a listen, if he suddenly requests it (which does happen), i don't need to wonder around like a headless chicken finding files...
this is only a backup recording parallel, the main recording happens with a field recorder...

otherwise, there are some functions and shortcuts on the other hand logic is more comfortable...
for overdubs i can send a large picture on a giant screen WITH a giant SMPTE time for the actors, very handy... that is something that lacks in live...

i also like Logic for audio fine editing, especially 'lining up' audio to video way more, the zoom with shortcuts, etc, etc makes that much quicker and comfortable for me... again personal preference...

one thing i came across, if you check around here on sites like crew united, which is a job database... for the movie/TV environment...
you will find a lot of Logic and PT operators as a job description, not Live yet... to be honest there is a reason...
it's in my eyes not about the quality, it's about the workflow and shortcuts, and certain functions which are suited to that kind of work...
Live is also in my very personal view an application mainly aimed to create music... (doesn't mean at all that you can use it for other things as well)
i know for example a lot of theatre sound guys who are using it for the clips to fire up sound effects instead of the overpriced and mega crappy theatro software...

i believe i said it already a hundred times... comparing Live to any other linear sequencer is nonsense.
Live is session view and now max for live... and of course that everything is realtime, which is a big CPU disadvantage for heavy mix projects...

use what suits the need and personal preferences... simple as that.

@ monstrejumo, i PM'ed you but have a DJ gig tonight, so i will answer within the next days, ciao.

[SubFunk]

one thing i miss during work now is that i can't start recording several clips at once time accurate with live...

it does not matter that much for me now, as i only need 3 at a time right now but would be handy... those 3 i can start after each other...
if i needed much more it would be way to time consuming to start them one by one...

and i have the work of lining them up again afterwards manually (if i need to layer them)... like i record sometimes the main mic and 2 lavalieres...
makes 3 channels simultaneously... if i would record them into arrange, the point of using live is lost.

[Sage]

thanks Sage

sorry for my bad english understanding, but do you mean you use logic quite as much as live these times, or that you use live much more than logic?

cheers

I use Live much more than Logic. Nothing wrong with Logic, Subfunk explains it correctly.

[supamonsta]

thanks for your explanations,

I'll be back in the topic when I'll have tried logic.

I'll surely be a bit disappointed, because I don't need a real powerful multitrack recording workstation, I only compose crappy electronic music with 3 external synths that I never record simultaneously, some impulses, some samples (not even used with simpler!), basic ableton devices (compressors, EQs, delays, beat repeat, bit reducer, chorus...), 2-3 free 3rd party plugs (sss sidechain compressor, L2 limiter...) and that's it.
I never "comped", and don't think I need it.
I'm really happy with the audio handling in Live (besides the fact that I'd like a better warp algorythm when I'm playing gigs - playing a 125bpm song at 130 sounds a bit crappy, even with repitch or complex modes).
I don't need all the instruments provided by logic studio, while the effects could have my interest though.
I'm pretty sure I'll never use mainstage or soundtrack.
I won't make any scoring (or perhap's 2 or 3 times in my life as an experience...), and I don't need the 12000terabytes of apple loops and stuff.

So my interest towards Logic is really specific to midi composition / editing, automation and midi control, and to the mixing stage. that's 10, 20% of Logic's abilities... that I hope could compliment Live's 80-90% that I love and use....

---


I still don't understand why we could not compare oranges and apples, they are fruits aren't they?

For me Live has 2 different approaches, the "real live" stuff, with session view, its ability to drag n drop everything, routing, all this while playing, etc, and the more classical linear way with the arrange view, but I also understand that this 2nd part is kind of layered onto the first one, and that seems to imply a huge difference.

But we can still compare what these 2 DAWs do have in common, all specifical stuff set apart.

I love live's open mind, and I'm now pretty used to configure stuff quickly as I want it to be. The major thing I miss with Live is better midi and automation handling and a more open GUI environment (multiple windows).

I would really love to be able to do everything in Live (and that's what I do for now), but I feel more and more the need to get other tools that Live doesn't provide for now although L7 and L8 updates have made some improvements that make it suit a bit more what I need (but not enough to make me update, I'm still on L6).

Cheers mates

[Machinesworking]

@monstrejumo,
One thing that cracks me up about perceptions are the way they change.
I started off in Digital Performer in 97, and moved to Logic in about 01, at that time Logic was universally branded the hardest DAW to
use at the beginning, DP and Cubase were the easy ones. The only really confusing thing about DP is it doesn't have an Arrangement window that's anything like Cubase, Live, Logic, Sonar etc. it has three different specialized windows for viewing a projects track data, plus MIDI and audio editors.
Depending on what you do, DP is far superior to Logic. The main thing I think about at this point is a simple, yet lacking in simplicity in other DAWs need, a single project with 10 - 13 songs in it, all with 12 to 24 tracks of audio and MIDI data, sending program change and SysEx messages to software plug ins and hardware you want to use in a live environment. If you were to do this with Live, it would be between 120 and 312 tracks all in the same window, not easy to navigate. In DP this is nice and simple, you have 13 song Chunks in the Song window, and each is easily opened in the Track Overview and Sequence windows etc. DP also gives you the ability to keep all instruments and FX that are global to the set (for instance Zebra with program changes for each song), in a separate Virtual Instrument rack etc.
With Logic, they broke it down into a suite of applications, Mainstage 2 can do a lot of what I've mentioned, but it's all importing and it's also at a 1.0 release as far as playing back audio files. Logic has inferior audio editing capabilities compared to DP, FX can be printed to audio files in the audio editor in DP, not in Logic. The main advantage Logic has is a slightly simpler way of hosting software instruments, but honestly one the initial grumpiness about how DP doesn't allow you to open only a single track for a VI, it's great when you actually burn them to audio.
Anyway, I own all three, and although I do agree the learning curve on DP is higher, the major problem with Apple owned Logic is that it's becoming like Live, in that it's trying to dumb down for the turtleneck crowd. That isn't why I liked it, and now in 2009, DP is doing a lot of the things that Logic should have done, adding features that make it a better DAW, instead of adding sub-windows and taking out features that they think will annoy the apple crowd.. I'm slowly moving back towards DP, and away from Logic, if that's not obvious, and if a cohesive hour long set or audio editing is important to you, then DP is killing the rest, really.

To be fair, Live has added group tracks in version 8, I'm not sure how well that would compare to the Song Window in DP, but it's better than <7, should give you an easier Arrangement window to look at.

[heavensdaw]

A very good friend of mine who has been a DP user for the last large chunk of recorded history... Bought Logic last year (he wanted to try it out). Anywayz he was also the first guy to show me Live back in 04.. He had a (cracked) version on his macbook.. When I first saw Lives GUI, I thought 'WTF is this'. Dismissed it, but a seed was there, sown..
My mate done one album in Logic.. Always saying that it was the learning curve in using Logic that was the main problem for him..
I kept saying . 'Man. if you wanna learn a new DAW, make it Live' (fanboish comment as I've never tried Logic or DP).
So after that album was made he buys Live Suite 8... I can't get him off it, (not that I want to) he is totally diggin Live.. And just keeps saying 'how good it sounds' and how easy it is to get going on a track and that there is NOTHING out there that he wants to work in again... This guy has a lot of experience.. It's weird, I thank him for introducing me to Live, and he thanks me for 'banging' on about it to him enough to make him wanna check it out!

Hd

[SubFunk]

the major problem with Apple owned Logic is that it's becoming like Live, in that it's trying to dumb down for the turtleneck crowd. That isn't why I liked it, and now in 2009, DP is doing a lot of the things that Logic should have done

oh man, i hear you... that is a major problem i have with the whole lot of the audio apps. and they way they develop...

they all seem to just lick ass. copying from each other... they all slowly melt into the same shit... even Live... OK they have now M4L but otherwise they try to implement other already existing shit, but hey it's the f-ing users who cry for rubbish like that... instead of making the session view and it's functionality stronger they add rubbish into the arrange, stupid idiots ask for that, thou... the arrange in my eyes is useless shit. i do not need live to have any sort of arrangement window... for that a damn dozen apps exist that do that already a million times better then live. live for me is the session view and now M4L plus realtime processing... nothing else!!!, for anything else are so much better software around, live needs still a decade to catch up with...

and what happens, others try to make a session view type-o-thing... and Live tries to maker the arrange better... what a f-ing bollocks!

soon they are all one slimy ball.

the thing i would like to see is that they all start again to specialise into one great function and not trying to do it all...

that is something i hate and i hate the Live users requesting that they can do everything just with Live...



end of a very personal RANT.

[supamonsta]

@MachinesWorking

Thanks for your explanations about DP, I understand a bit more why I didn't really understand it...

In fact I don't really matter being able to have a huge set with 10 songs. (I don't really get the interest of this process, is it for live gigs? or to compose coherent songs so as to have the overall same "sounding" for, eg, an album?)

I work songs one by one, and it's kinda "minimal" setup : 8-10 audio tracks for acapellas, samples, and audio from external synths, 2-3 midi tracks for my external synths and 2-5 impulses, 5-6 routing/grouping/bussing tracks, and 1-2 return tracks.

So I never have more than 20 tracks for a song composition process...

for my live gig set, I do a kinda multitrack djing with Live, importing songs in 5-bounced-tracks-40 clips-groups on the fly, each new song replacing the former one in predefined midi-assigned clip slots with track routings and busses for live mangling with beatrepeats, and 2 returns for further live FXs. I like this way of playing live with live, so I won't use DP or Logic for live gigs.

I'll read more stuff to understand DP a bit more, as it would cost me less $$ to get dp7 than logic (I own audiodesk with my ultralite, and upgrading to DP7 is only 276 euros...)

Thanks a lot for this interesting discussions about oranges and apples mates!

Kisses

EDIT : I found this : http://www.vtc.com/products/MOTU-Digita ... orials.htm
video tutorials introducing DP6s functionalities... Let's learn!

[dom]

one thing i miss during work now is that i can't start recording several clips at once time accurate with live...

it does not matter that much for me now, as i only need 3 at a time right now but would be handy... those 3 i can start after each other...
if i needed much more it would be way to time consuming to start them one by one...

and i have the work of lining them up again afterwards manually (if i need to layer them)... like i record sometimes the main mic and 2 lavalieres...
makes 3 channels simultaneously... if i would record them into arrange, the point of using live is lost.

Preferences/record warp launch/start recording on scene launch *on* - will start recording clips in all armed tracks as soon as you trigger the scene.

Does it help you?

Cheers,
Dom

[SubFunk]

one thing i miss during work now is that i can't start recording several clips at once time accurate with live...

it does not matter that much for me now, as i only need 3 at a time right now but would be handy... those 3 i can start after each other...
if i needed much more it would be way to time consuming to start them one by one...

and i have the work of lining them up again afterwards manually (if i need to layer them)... like i record sometimes the main mic and 2 lavalieres...
makes 3 channels simultaneously... if i would record them into arrange, the point of using live is lost.

Preferences/record warp launch/start recording on scene launch *on* - will start recording clips in all armed tracks as soon as you trigger the scene.

Does it help you?

Cheers,
Dom

yo! that is news to me and certainly helps, thanks a dozen!
how come that i could not find that in the written manual?
i was looking for that like mad... i am either blind or it is missing...?

i will have a look right now again, see if i can find it.

cheers

[dom]

how come that i could not find that in the written manual?
i was looking for that like mad... i am either blind or it is missing...?

Confucius said the madder you look for it, the blinder you get, my old grumpy user group king. ;-)
Hope it makes your current day work a bit more pleasant!

Cheers,
Dom

[SubFunk]

@ dom,

wow i have a written manual in german!
and i found something that if i mix it a bit with chinese could possibly mean what you just explained easy in a few words...
if it would not be so much text i would like to type it all on here, but seriously it's not understandable in german
(fair enough i hate german manuals anyway) please read the german manual page 203 bottom section
and consider to change into an understandable language, i seriously only got it because you where explaining it nicely and quick n' easy in english.

the whole german manual is a horror anyways. it reads like a law book.

sorry to say, but it really is horrible.
but thanks again for the clarification

[SubFunk]

how come that i could not find that in the written manual?
i was looking for that like mad... i am either blind or it is missing...?

Confucius said the madder you look for it, the blinder you get, my old grumpy user group king.
Hope it makes your current day work a bit more pleasant!

Cheers,
Dom

yo! it definitely is going to make things easier, thanks again... oh F, you as well tell me i am grumpy, only because i bark sometimes at brick heads...
damn, i thought i am already all nice in my way of expressing myself... what else do i have to do? creeping deep into peoples arses?
well, that is not going to happen, i rather live with being considered whatever...

btw, did you got the mail?
how are we going to do it technical on the 5th? jason can't make it, so no decks.
yesterday was a blast, you missed out.