Conspiracy theorists combat this!

[Machinesworking]

@ you guys.
I could have scripted your responses.

People who feel the need to inform people they know everything, are a dime a dozen online.
subterFUSE, can you say "egomaniac"?
I think you can!

[markaugust]

a friend of mine once said the following example:

imagine a mid air floating pyramid in a big valley.
one person is lying under it pretty close to the pyramid
another one is standing a mile away on a hill;
the guy on the hill has perspective and can see that it is a pyramid
the guy under the pyramid tells the other he is crazy, cauz what he sees is a square.
and nothing else,
(i am sure the story sounds better in dutch )

rob; get the hell away from under that pyramid man!, (cauz it is actually foxnews/bill o'reilly and it is gonna squash you, if you don't watch out!!)


p.s that bill o'reilly-fellow must be one of the scarriest assholes (with power) i've ever seen on television in my life...

[D DAS]

jackal and hyde wrote "This is just nonsense. Anyone that knows jack about explosives knows this is garbage. First of all, deep cuts/holes need to be put into every single concrete support column on every floor of a gutted building before shape charges/tnt are put in weakening the shit out of the building itself"

there are explosive charges capable of shredding through steel if placed around it.

what, you think upper level floors somehow pancaking down are capable of pancaking the entire building down into its foot print, floors who's structures were not damaged? hello. think about it.
let's say it happens once, ok freak fuckin chance.
happens twice,,,,ummmmm something is not right here. act of god maybe?
happens three times in one day. bull shit, it does not happen that way
buildings don't just fall out of the sky like that, if they did then every single skyscraper ever built and every engineer that designed them has there head up there ass which is not the case.

[D DAS]

from Controlled Demolition Inc.'s website. one of many many steel structures they have taken out with explosives,,,,with out having to drill in the metal.

http://www.controlled-demolition.com/de ... 0226162334



Biltmore Hotel

Seconds after the final warning signal blared Sunday afternoon at a downtown redevelopment site in Oklahoma City, precisely placed explosive charges dropped a 28-story building almost in its tracks. When it fell, the 245-ft-high structure became the tallest steel-frame building to be demolished with explosives.

Built in 1932 of heavy beams and beefed-up steel columns, the Biltmore Hotel stood in the way of a $39-million urban renewal plan to construct a cultural and recreational complex. Some structures on the site have been removed while others await demolition.

But none presented the problems that the Biltmore did. "It’ s the heaviest steel we’ve ever worked on," says Mark Loizeaux, of Controlled Demolition, Inc. (CDI), Towson, Md., which dropped the brick-clad structure for contractor Wells Excavating Co., Inc., Oklahoma City.

"Because of the thickness of the steel, a single charge wouldn't penetrate completely through," he says. “We had to attack a single 3-in.-thick stem plate from both sides." Each 16-in. steel column with built-up flanges totals 2.5 to 3 tons per floor.

To blast in this fashion, says Loizeaux, it is imperative that the charges on opposing sides go off simultaneously. If one goes off too soon, it will dislodge the other before it can cut through the steel.

CDI placed 991 separate charges, about 800 lbs. of explosives in all, on seven floors from the basement to the 14th floor and detonated them over a five-second interval. CDI’s detonation sequence aimed to drop the building in a southerly direction in what is called a controlled progressive collapse in order to lay out the demolished structure to ease removal of debris.

Besides concern over the size of the steel frame members, CDI took a hard look at the type of steel, which Loizeaux describes as malleable. He says such steel doesn't break readily and "can get real testy." But the building fell, as planned, and CDI walked away with its share of the $207,000 demolition general contract.

[D DAS]

a statement from someone who worked for Fiduciary Trust on the 90th, 94-97th floors of the South Tower:

"On the weekend of 9/8,9/9 there was a 'power down' condition in WTC tower 2, the south tower. This power down condition meant there was no electrical supply for approx 36 hrs from floor 50 up. I am aware of this situation since I work in IT and had to work with many others that weekend to ensure that all systems were cleanly shutdown beforehand ... and then brought back up afterwards. The reason given by the WTC for the power down was that cabling in the tower was being upgraded ...

"Of course without power there were no security cameras, no security locks on doors and many, many 'engineers' coming in and out of the tower. I was at home on the morning of 9/11 on the shore of Jersey City, right opposite the Towers, and watching events unfold I was convinced immediately that something was happening related to the weekend work."

[D DAS]

If the 3 buildings had been pancaked down with each floor caving in on the floor below, then it would have taken a lot longer as each floor would resist and slow the collapse. This is understandable to the layman in terms of inertia or the conservation of momentum. Suppose a truck rear ends the last of 47 cars stalled in traffic on the freeway. The 47th car in line, slows the momentum of the truck but it is forced forward and strikes the 46th car and it in turns slows the momentum and it hits car 45 and so on to car number one. What Professor Jones is saying is that WTC 7 collapsed so fast that there was no resistance from the 46 floors below the top of the building which had been hit by debris and was burning.

[D DAS]

If you are still convinced that the World Trade Center was taken down by those 2 planes alone and you think you can prove it, you can go to Jimmy Walter's website and file a claim for the million dollar reward he will give to anyone who can prove that bombs did not take down the World Trade Center. Go here http://Reopen911.org .

[robtronik]

Everyone that pushes for the conpiracy wants to so fully believe that their world view on governments, corporations, and nations like Isreal are somehow behind the attacks (or were complicit in it).

How about all people that are willing to accept things as they've been presented, like a lapdog for the gov't, are inbred morons?

Stop generalizing. There are some of us that only give credence to the conspiracy theory because we've examined the data and know that a full conclusion can't be reached.

You're an absolute idiot.

ah yes, there goes that temper again. Too bad you can't just stay at the level we've been at rather than personal attacks.

And, needless to say, this is not only a reflection on you but your beliefs you are trying to espouse here.

But I have to chuckle on your "examing the data" to conclude that there was a conspiracy. Why don't you apply your same critical faculties in the reverse direction and try to prove that there wasn't a conspiracy?

Or would that be too offensive to your world view on how insidious the U.S. government really is?

I'm only, you know, asking.



rob.

[robtronik]

a friend of mine once said the following example:

imagine a mid air floating pyramid in a big valley.
one person is lying under it pretty close to the pyramid
another one is standing a mile away on a hill;
the guy on the hill has perspective and can see that it is a pyramid
the guy under the pyramid tells the other he is crazy, cauz what he sees is a square.
and nothing else,
(i am sure the story sounds better in dutch )

rob; get the hell away from under that pyramid man!, (cauz it is actually foxnews/bill o'reilly and it is gonna squash you, if you don't watch out!!)


p.s that bill o'reilly-fellow must be one of the scarriest assholes (with power) i've ever seen on television in my life...

And then, of course, there is that person who is at a right angle from the person on the hill who has the vantage point that shows him the pyramid is actually at the end of a very large pole that is holding it up.

LOL.

anyway, I get your point, but this assumes that that I can't see the perspective that those are advocating here. I DO. And I totally disagree with it.

Its funny. You can bring up examples of how things can be rationally explained and then, of course, those that want to believe the conspiracy theories will subvert the rational for the remarkable, improbably, wildly conspiratorial viewpoint.

All this simply because they are driven to believe the worst about who was attacked.

This whole "hate america" thing is overblown. We obviously don't do every thing correctly. We don't have the ability to be perfect. No one does.

But before we get on the American Sucks Wagon, those of you that are critical of the U.S. for its imperialistic, economic, and social goals should take a long hard look at the history of mankind and rate how Americans live today vs. civilizations of the past. There aren't many comparisons given how large geographically we are and how many people that this government is respsonsible for governing...and it certainly isn't perfect, but there is much to be lauded.

Of course, none of you have to live here. At least you have that choice.

Further, Iraq's former leader is at fault for his removal and our needing to be there - which for those that don't know, we have a LEGAL obligation to stay according to the Geneva convention. We CANNOT leave until the country is self sufficient in governing itself - this is the obligation and legal requirement set by the convention. Secondly, go read the stats on Iraq and how their economy is booming, their freedom is speech is bursting at the dams, their elected leadership is getting close implementing a permanent government, and no civil war has erupted, and terrorists are loosing ground every day there - and ask yourself... how's it going to be in 5 more years? 10 more years?

My money is on the Iraqi people to do what is right for them and embrace self empowerment and enfranchisement. So far they haven't proven us wrong yet.

Think about the alternatives to your viewpoints at least. The naysaying and doomsdayers are tiring and do nothing to advance the opportunities in front of us, IMO.

rob.

[Machinesworking]

I'm only, you know, asking.

Plenty of other people have brought up plenty of questions of your opinions and views without resorting to personal attacks, and you ignore them in order to reply to the one person who lost their cool....Do you only care to strengthen your own case by centering on what is the easiest target?

Again, why were there no planes scrambling these jets? We scramble jets and small aircraft that mildly fly off course all the time, you seriously can't believe that the military would wait around for approval before sending a jet in to blow up at least the second plane that hit the second tower? There was plenty of time to scramble the second plane, and it was already known that there were four highjacked planes..... with our air force and previous incidents similar to this, plenty of time.

Why were there no black boxes for either plane? The heat and pressure wasn't enough to destroy them. Yet it was claimed that a paper passport was found in the rubble?

Why did we go into Iraq when any intelligence officer would tell you that Bin Ladin would be least likely to be in Iraq, or that Bin Ladin hated Saddam Hussein almost as much as the USA?

I don't have answers to these questions, but they sure as hell should be asked don't you think? I certainly don't think that these questions are only the property of the conspiracy theorists.

[robtronik]

I also did an informal poll on how deep the conpiracy theories have penetrated conventional wisdom. Thankfully these stats give me a little hope. Mind you that this board I took the poll from are mostly all liberal, anti-bush folks.... :

Code: Select all

[b]Did the U.S. Government plan and execute the events that occured on 9/11?[/b]

Yes, without question  [ 3 ]  8%
Absolutely Not  	[ 9 ]  	 26%
Yes, but only a part of it  	[ 3 ]  8%
No - but I still think there was a cover up  	[ 19 ]  55%

Total Votes : 34

That would, of course, explain the 55% who said no, but still feel that they aren't getting all the answers yet.

rob.

[robtronik]

I'm only, you know, asking.

Plenty of other people have brought up plenty of questions of your opinions and views without resorting to personal attacks, and you ignore them in order to reply to the one person who lost their cool....Do you only care to strengthen your own case by centering on what is the easiest target?

Again, why were there no planes scrambling these jets? We scramble jets and small aircraft that mildly fly off course all the time, you seriously can't believe that the military would wait around for approval before sending a jet in to blow up at least the second plane that hit the second tower? There was plenty of time to scramble the second plane, and it was already known that there were four highjacked planes..... with our air force and previous incidents similar to this, plenty of time.

Why were there no black boxes for either plane? The heat and pressure wasn't enough to destroy them. Yet it was claimed that a paper passport was found in the rubble?

Why did we go into Iraq when any intelligence officer would tell you that Bin Ladin would be least likely to be in Iraq, or that Bin Ladin hated Saddam Hussein almost as much as the USA?

I don't have answers to these questions, but they sure as hell should be asked don't you think? I certainly don't think that these questions are only the property of the conspiracy theorists.

You saw my post above?

Sure you can ask all these questions. By all means, do it. Am I the one responsible for finding you an answer?

NO.

They are great questions to ponder - and by all means, when you find the answer, please report back.

I have a question too: How come we haven't disproven that there is no alien life? SOME PLEASE FIND ME THE ANSWER. OTHERWISE I MUST BELIEVE that alien life exists and anyone that argues with me is wrong because they haven't produced proof that no alien life really exists beyond us.

LOL. (the above paragraph was intended to be sarcastic - and indicative of the logic applied to the analysis of how a 9/11 conspiracy MUST BE TRUE because there is no proof that a conspiracy DIDN'T exist).

And then people wonder why we get frustrated. The data is out there. Its up to you to decide if your theory holds water, not me.

And dont' be mistaken by the belief that if I don't argue your points, you are somehow correct with your beliefs. I'm not your barometer here - just the person pointing how absurd most of the theories are based on all the referenced material found elsewhere (that you are perfectly able to research on your own).


rob.

[Spikee]

How about all people that are willing to accept things as they've been presented, like a lapdog for the gov't, are inbred morons?

That's a bit unfair. It goes both ways, man.

You claim that anyone who beleives the 9/11 commission report is a mindless lapdog. The same could be said of people who watched the conspiracy documentaries, and believe those. They are merely siding with someone else's theory. Just because you feel so strongly that you're right, doesn't make you better, or worse than said "lapdogs".

Erm... you read the quote that I was responding to, right? The only reason why I posted that was because of Robtronik's generalization.

I'm not going to sit here and champion the notion that neither side's story can be conclusively proved and then start making generalizations about either side -- either side could be right. I could've however verbalized myself better to show that I said that to Robtronik just to be petulant, not that I actually feel that way.

Sorry for the misunderstanding!

[Machinesworking]

Sure you can ask all these questions. By all means, do it. Am I the one responsible for finding you an answer?

NO.

They are great questions to ponder - and by all means, when you find the answer, please report back.

I have a question too: How come we haven't disproven that there is no alien life? SOME PLEASE FIND ME THE ANSWER. OTHERWISE I MUST BELIEVE that alien life exists and anyone that argues with me is wrong because they haven't produced proof that no alien life really exists beyond us.

LOL. (the above paragraph was intended to be sarcastic - and indicative of the logic applied to the analysis of how a 9/11 conspiracy MUST BE TRUE because there is no proof that a conspiracy DIDN'T exist).

And then people wonder why we get frustrated. The data is out there. Its up to you to decide if your theory holds water, not me.

And dont' be mistaken by the belief that if I don't argue your points, you are somehow correct with your beliefs. I'm not your barometer here - just the person pointing how absurd most of the theories are based on all the referenced material found elsewhere (that you are perfectly able to research on your own).


rob.

Everything you said applies to your side as well though, if you cannot prove that the US is involved in 911, then the US was not involved...... It's as prejudiced to think that the US government is innocent as it is to think that the US government is guilty, yet you have stated that you think the US government is innocent......

Basically, you're as biased about this as the conspiracy theorists that you vainly try to make fun of.

I don't know what happened, and the evidence leads me to believe something happened beyond what is being sold to the public by the white house and conservative media outlets. Granted the liberal media let about any screwball voice his opinion as if it were all fact, but some of the provable evidence is pretty damming, and makes a rational person who wants a logical explanation question the official story.

I don't doubt that Al Quada are assholes, but I sure as hell am not going to try to hold the USA up as the bastion of rational thinking right now. We need to question these things. Would it make more sense to try to get to some simple facts instead of arguing about what can't be proven one way or the other? I think so.

[Spikee]

Everyone that pushes for the conpiracy wants to so fully believe that their world view on governments, corporations, and nations like Isreal are somehow behind the attacks (or were complicit in it).

How about all people that are willing to accept things as they've been presented, like a lapdog for the gov't, are inbred morons?

Stop generalizing. There are some of us that only give credence to the conspiracy theory because we've examined the data and know that a full conclusion can't be reached.

You're an absolute idiot.

ah yes, there goes that temper again. Too bad you can't just stay at the level we've been at rather than personal attacks.

And, needless to say, this is not only a reflection on you but your beliefs you are trying to espouse here.

But I have to chuckle on your "examing the data" to conclude that there was a conspiracy. Why don't you apply your same critical faculties in the reverse direction and try to prove that there wasn't a conspiracy?

Or would that be too offensive to your world view on how insidious the U.S. government really is?

I'm only, you know, asking.



rob.

You've been a reflection of your beliefs since the moment I've talked to you and all you've done is patronize, wage war with speculation presented as fact, dodge questions, and then generalize (and very unfairly and inaccurately). So, let me ask you a question instead...

Why should I care what you think? You got wrote off a looooooong time ago and whatever you think won't change the turn of events (whatever explanation is right) of 9/11. History and time will sort this out, not your opinion of me.

I'm done arguing with you, apologies in advance if I continue to sharpshoot you while you fumble through whatever purpose you're trying to serve here with your informal polls and diverting to alien life and topics that don't pertain to this discussion.

EDIT: Why don't I apply my logic to proving a conspiracy didn't happen? Simple -- our government was built on questioning authority. Boston Tea Party, anyone? lunch counter sit-ins in the 60s? Women's suffrage?

Say what you want about my logic and rationale but don't you dare try to impugn my intentions -- if it wasn't for visionaries through the years having my same spirit and passion this country wouldn't be worth a damn anyways. You would really serve this country well to allow inquisitive people to continue being inquisitive, it will only make the country better.