[ot] - kim jong ill, nuclear at last!

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knotkranky
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Post by knotkranky » Wed Oct 11, 2006 6:16 pm

Nice. Wouldn't mind hearing some beats on those.

ya know his name sounds cool. And to have the name ILL be real.

It might be best to give him 5.0.0 though and keep him preoccupied even further.

Imagine DJKJ ill on this board. Or best; DJ iLL , sig; Nuclear god beats from the superdeep people's underground. :evil:

sweetjesus
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Post by sweetjesus » Wed Oct 11, 2006 6:39 pm

its fun watching some of the political psychology heavyweights here miss the obvious ..

NOT ONE PERSON IN JAPAN WANTS TO EVEN THINK ABOUT YOUR NUKES EXISTING AND TOUCHING THEIR ISLANDS

muscleandhate
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Post by muscleandhate » Wed Oct 11, 2006 6:44 pm

simpleton wrote:
pulsoc wrote:
subterFUSE wrote:The answer is by giving nukes to Japan. Do that, and suddenly China has a rather vested interest in preventing conflict in the region.
Or maybe we should cut off the supply off wealth to China - from the American consumer.
The problem is that China owns us(the west) economically. We're joined at the hip- can't threaten them with squat. The answer is give the nukes to our pals the Japs and nuke the gooks by proxy. That'll scare the shit out of China 'cause they know Japan can come up with some exotic weapons that'll make their shit look like bows & arrows. The Russians will poop their pants too.
:idea: I call it the doctrine of Pre-emptive Proliferation.
Your stupidity is just astounding, it really is. Merely the prospect of discussion with people like you results in that feeling you experience when you try and comphrehend the Universe. Do actually you believe this offensive and racist nonsense or are these simply a bland provocation?

muscleandhate
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Post by muscleandhate » Wed Oct 11, 2006 6:51 pm

subterFUSE wrote:
pulsoc wrote:
subterFUSE wrote:The question is.... how do you get China to help? They have been unwilling to do so for years. China benefits from instability in the region. That is why they have not been helping. So how do we change this?

The answer is by giving nukes to Japan. Do that, and suddenly China has a rather vested interest in preventing conflict in the region.
Or maybe we should cut off the supply off wealth to China - from the American consumer.

Or would that be unpatriotic?

That affects us economically, and it's too hard to implement quickly.

Giving nukes to Japan is a quick fix.... and doesn't harm our own interests.
Yes American foreign policy has a curious tendency for 'quick fixes', in a historical context, can you see the idiocy in your statement?

M. Bréqs
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Post by M. Bréqs » Wed Oct 11, 2006 7:23 pm

In case anybody cares, here's an excerpt from an outstanding options analysis from STRATFOR. They're a private intelligence reporting firm.

Essentially, they hit the nail on the head as far as I'm concerned; Russia and particularly China made this problem, let them deal with it. They're the ones within range of Ill Kim's Dongs, not us.

Bold text is my emphasis, not STRATFOR's.

Republished from STRATFOR:

Red Alert: North Korea -- Is There a Military Solution?
October 09, 2006 12 55 GMT

Summary

Whatever the political realities may seem to dictate after a North Korean nuclear test, an overt military strike -- even one limited to cruise missiles -- is not in the cards. The consequences of even the most restrained attack could be devastating.

Analysis

...Regime preservation is the entire point of [North Korean] nuclear capability. Therefore, it is quite conceivable that Kim Jong Il and his advisers -- or other factions -- might construe even the most limited military strikes against targets directly related to missile development or a nuclear program as an act threatening the regime, and therefore one that necessitates a fierce response. Regime survival could very easily entail a full, unlimited reprisal by the Korean People's Army (KPA) to any military strike whatsoever on North Korean soil.

North Korea has some 10,000 fortified artillery pieces trained on Seoul. It is essential to understand that South Korea's capital city, a major population center and the industrial heartland of South Korea, is within range of conventional artillery.

...The United States must assume, for the sake of planning, that U.S. airstrikes would be followed by massed artillery fire on Seoul... North Korea's artillery lies deep inside caves and fortifications all along the western section of the demilitarized zone (DMZ). An air campaign against these guns would take a long time, during which enormous damage would be done to Seoul and the South Korean economy -- perhaps on the order of several hundred thousand high-explosive rounds per hour. Even using tactical nuclear weapons against this artillery would pose serious threats to Seoul. The radiation from even low-yield weapons could force the evacuation of the city.

Moving north into the North Korean defensive belt is an option, but an enormously costly one. North Korea has a huge army and, on the defensive, it can be formidable. Fifty years of concerted military fortification would make Hezbollah's preparations in southern Lebanon look like child's play.

...Moreover, the North Koreans would have the option of moving south. Now, in U.S. thinking, this is the ideal scenario. The North Korean force on the move, outside of its fortifications, would be vulnerable to U.S. and South Korean airstrikes and superior ground maneuver and fire capabilities.

...However [this supposes] at least 30 days for the activation and mobilization of U.S. forces for a counterattack. U.S. and South Korean forces would maintain an elastic defense against the North; as in the first war, forces would be rushed into the region, stabilizing the front, and then a counterattack would develop, breaking the North Korean army and allowing a move north.

There are three problems with this strategy. The first is that the elastic strategy would inevitably lead to the fall of Seoul and, if the 1950 model were a guide, a much deeper withdrawal along the Korean Peninsula. Second, the ability of the U.S. Army to deploy substantial forces to Korea within a 30-day window is highly dubious. Desert Storm and Iraqi Freedom both required much longer periods of time.

Finally, the U.S. Army is already fighting two major ground wars and is stretched to the breaking point. ...a multidivisional force available for deployment in South Korea would require a national mobilization not seen since the last Korean War.

It comes down to this: If the United States strikes at North Korea's nuclear capabilities, it does so placing a bet. And that bet is that North Korea will not respond. That might be true, but if it is not true, it poses a battlefield problem to which neither South Korea nor the United States will be able to respond. In one scenario, the North Koreans bombard Seoul and the United States makes a doomed attempt at shutting down the massive artillery barrage. By the time the guns are silenced -- even in the best-case scenarios -- Seoul will be a mess. In another scenario, the North Korean army executes an offensive of even minimal competence, which costs South Korea its capital and industrial heartland. The third is a guerrilla onslaught from the elite of the North Korean army, deployed by minisubs and tunnels under the DMZ. The guerrillas pour into the south and wreak havoc on U.S. military installations.

...The United States has two advantages. The first is time. There is a huge difference between a nuclear device and a deployable nuclear weapon. The latter has to be shaped into a small, rugged package able to be launched on a missile or dropped from a plane. Causing atomic fission is not the same as having a weapon.

The second advantage is distance. The United States is safe and far away from North Korea. Four other powers -- Russia, China, South Korea and Japan -- have much more to fear from North Korea than does the United States. The United States will always act unilaterally if it feels that it has no other way to protect its national interest. As it is, however, U.S. national interest is not at stake.

South Korea faces nothing less than national destruction in an all-out war. South Korea knows this and it will vigorously oppose any overt military action. Nor does China profit from a destabilized North Korea and a heavy-handed U.S. military move in its backyard. Nevertheless, if North Korea is a threat, it is first a threat to its immediate neighbors, one or more of whom can deal with North Korea.

Ultimately, North Korea wants regime survival. In the end, allowing the North Korean regime to survive is something that has been acceptable for over half a century. When you play out the options, the acquisition of a nuclear device -- especially one neither robust nor deployable -- does not, by itself, compel the United States to act, nor does it give the United States a militarily satisfactory option. The most important issue is the transfer of North Korean nuclear technology to other countries and groups. That is something the six-party talk participants have an equal interest in and might have the leverage to prevent.

Not every situation has a satisfactory military solution. This seems to be one of them.
Last edited by M. Bréqs on Wed Oct 11, 2006 7:37 pm, edited 4 times in total.

knotkranky
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Post by knotkranky » Wed Oct 11, 2006 7:27 pm

sweetjesus wrote:its fun watching some of the political psychology heavyweights here miss the obvious ..

NOT ONE PERSON IN JAPAN WANTS TO EVEN THINK ABOUT YOUR NUKES EXISTING AND TOUCHING THEIR ISLANDS
Yes to that. DJimagine gave a great post. Japan is not too keen on U.S. reliance and they won't accept it like that anyway. If they do, it will be clandestine. Bombing Japan, S. Korea is like bombing the U.S. and the rest of the world. I have friends and have visited in Tokyo many times. I've been to Nagasaki ground zero and Seoul too, though what I can tell you about the horrifically violent pacific rim history would fill a thimble, but they are all fine people and want peace. They understand war much better than we do. China is in the hot seat for making the boldest moves against NK right now, but all will be taking care of their own too.

pulsoc
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Post by pulsoc » Wed Oct 11, 2006 7:40 pm

DeadlyKungFu wrote:If we give Japan nukes, then why not give them to India to defend themselves against Pakistan??
FYI India has had nukes since 1998, before Pakistan acquired them.

DeadlyKungFu
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Post by DeadlyKungFu » Wed Oct 11, 2006 7:45 pm

pulsoc wrote:
DeadlyKungFu wrote:If we give Japan nukes, then why not give them to India to defend themselves against Pakistan??
FYI India has had nukes since 1998, before Pakistan acquired them.
Thanks for correcting me on that. :( Doesn't even make sense that Pakistan would develop them before India, India's the one exporting brilliant engineers. I was tired or dumb, or a bit of both. Pakistan is still importing the wheel.

Can I infer from your post that Pakistan has nukes? I know I should look it up but I need lunch.

Way to jump the bandwagon Breqs... How long do you think it takes to develop a nuclear program? :roll: N Korea seems to have failed on their first test after all these years.

Need food, getting bitchy...
Last edited by DeadlyKungFu on Wed Oct 11, 2006 7:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.

M. Bréqs
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Post by M. Bréqs » Wed Oct 11, 2006 7:45 pm

pulsoc wrote:
DeadlyKungFu wrote:If we give Japan nukes, then why not give them to India to defend themselves against Pakistan??
FYI India has had nukes since 1998, before Pakistan acquired them.
Quite Right Pulsoc!

Besides, nobody has to "give" Japan nukes. They have the technology to make their own, and plenty of fissionable material powering their country I imagine.

M. Bréqs
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Post by M. Bréqs » Wed Oct 11, 2006 7:52 pm

I remember visiting the Democratic People's Republic of Korea national government website back in like 2002. It was friggin hilarious.

Whereas most government websites have a few common content aspects (pages for citizens, visitors, immigration, history, laws, etc) the most important feature is that they were all fully navigable, the DPRK website was much simpler... It was all HTML if I recall.

You got to their home page, and there was a picture of Ill Kim and the flag. Then, there was one big button at the bottm that said "click". That was the only option.

You went to the next page, which might have been history or something. Some poorly placed pictures, mostly text. Again, a single button at the bottom saying "click".

Then there was a series of about 4 or 6 more pages, which detailed the daring and genius of the dear leader, his old man, and how shitty Japan was (as later was the United States) during their glorious people's revolution. Each page had a single big button at the bottom saying "click".

Then you got to the end, and it was like "thank you for visiting" sort of thing... and no hyperlinks at all!

I showed this to my friends, and we all had a serious laugh. Man, no options, no navigation, just a sequence of propaganda pages. Very unspohisticated.

Anyways, I haven't checked recently, they've probably changed it now, but who knows?

M. Bréqs
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Post by M. Bréqs » Wed Oct 11, 2006 8:09 pm

DeadlyKungFu wrote: Way to jump the bandwagon Breqs... How long do you think it takes to develop a nuclear program? :roll: N Korea seems to have failed on their first test after all these years.

Need food, getting bitchy...
Sorry I brought it up.

But I think the Japanese could have a functioning nuclear weapon within a week. There's two ways of detonating a nuclear weapon;

"Gun-Type" and "Impolsion".

Little Boy (dropped on Hiroshima) was a gun-type device. It shoots one hunk of fissionable matierial into another through a conventional explosion, down a cannon barrell. Very simple. Japan could easily produce one in a week, perhaps less.

An implosion type weapon (like Little Boy, dropped on Nagasaki and most modern warheads) uses a hollow sphere of fissionable material, with conventional explosives evenly placed around it. It's much more difficult to detonate, and requires highly refined processes to set up, but it's much more effecient than the gun-type.

DeadlyKungFu
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Post by DeadlyKungFu » Wed Oct 11, 2006 8:33 pm

meh, the political threads bring out the forgettable in us all...

Then there's the good ol' dirty bomb, just spread radiation over an area from altitude. We could just give Japan a buttload of SAR defense systems, NOTHING would get off the island. Gotta feel for S Korea though, this is bad.

If Japan could develop a nuke in a week, what would be the repurcussions if they fired an untested nuke that didn't work? Lil' Kim might get more than a lil pissed off.

I'm still missing why one has to go after N Korea with a nuke, just because they have one doesn't mean we need one, this isn't Stratego!!


I dunno, I dunnno, I dunno... someday the world leader's will stop using cracked versions of Live, buy it for real, join the site and we'll help them solve all the world's problems. I think I saw a video of Lil Kim on YouTube making phat beats with Fruity Loops but it kept hating on him, he needs Live.

knotkranky
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Post by knotkranky » Wed Oct 11, 2006 8:54 pm

DeadlyKungFu wrote:meh, the political threads bring out the forgettable in us all...
omg, Nice one. Quote of the month.

icedsushi
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Post by icedsushi » Wed Oct 11, 2006 9:48 pm

M. Bréqs wrote:Besides, nobody has to "give" Japan nukes. They have the technology to make their own, and plenty of fissionable material powering their country I imagine.
Even though they have the capability to produce them, Japan (so far) has been consistent in it's principals of signing of the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty.

http://www.globalsecurity.org/wmd/world/japan/nuke.htm

According to this, due to increasing pressure they have at least considered nullifying the treaty over the years but have decided not go against their principals. Also, it doesn't make sense to defend against a nuclear attack with nuclear missles when the technology and population of the country is so dense in an area so relatively small. But the point is, after their losses in WWII they have pledged not to participate in an arms race based on fear, and never forget. That's making a statement.

There was angst over WWII no doubt, but in principal a honorable viewpoint indeed. They don't want to go let things escalate to that again no matter who's right or wrong. Since WWII was the only time nukes were actually used in a battle, the whole world should never forget this history, there is a lot to learn from it. It looks like N Korea will be the true test though. If Japan would go against the treaty it would most likely start a domino effect arms race in the rest of Asia. They know that...it's a catch 22.

An opposite race for the superpowers to disarm their nuclear "defense" would be the ultimate sign of courage and respect. A race for courage instead of a race based on fear. Ironically it would be a good (perhaps better) defense also. Who would bomb a country that went out of it's way to make a peaceful statement by ridding itself of it's huge investment in warheads?! I believe that not having nuclear arms is just as powerful a detterent against an attack as having them is. Of course, deep down we all know this, but in reality the quest for man's greed and religious elitism always prevails.

I went to the museum and ground zero at Nagasaki 2 years ago. It's something everyone should experience to put things in perspective. It's very sad and totally mind numbing when you really try to picture the reality up close of something that horrible and devastating. You simply don't think about the politics or crazy people anymore. No matter what the circumstances, nothing should ever come to that again, period.

knotkranky
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Post by knotkranky » Wed Oct 11, 2006 9:53 pm

I went to the museum and ground zero at Nagasaki 2 years ago. It's something everyone should experience to put things in perspective. It's very sad and totally mind numbing when you really try to picture the reality up close of something that horrible and devastating. You simply don't think about the politics or crazy people anymore. No matter what the circumstances, nothing should ever come to that again, period.

I saw it too. :cry:

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