This thread is dead. And in hell.

[kabuki]

This is definitely one area I haven't quite figured out yet. It is true that animals besides humans do practice homosexuality, and I'm not so sure that I believe that homosexuality is a "choice". The bible does talk about homosexuality in a negative light...I just haven't figured it out yet. I have friends that are gay, and I can certainly understand them, even though I'm not gay. People find love (not just sex) where they can get it.

This topic, I'm afraid, I am at a loss.

spend some time with your gay friends and ask yourself if you can imagine them in a relationship with someone of the opposite sex. ask yourself if they CHOSE to be gay and have the problems and confusion that go along with it. hell, ask them what they think of the topic, "you know, I'm into the Bible and stuff and I'm conflicted on how it views gays, what do you think?"

at least you're being honest, props for that.

Another thing I find interesting, is that they assume sexuality is a choice. That gays made a choice. If some people made a choice, then wouldn't the same choice have come to us all which gender we prefer?

Not me. Not once. I like twat. Always did. Always will. And I'm sure it was that way with my lesbian cousin. The only choice my gay friends ever made was when and where to come out.

Perhaps these religeous people were questioning their sexuality, and they hate themselves for it, so they also hate those that they assume must have as well.

[noisetonepause]

Loads of animals practice homosexuality. Masturbation is quite common too.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Animal_sex ... rbation.29
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexuality_in_animals

This is definitely one area I haven't quite figured out yet. It is true that animals besides humans do practice homosexuality, and I'm not so sure that I believe that homosexuality is a "choice". The bible does talk about homosexuality in a negative light...I just haven't figured it out yet. I have friends that are gay, and I can certainly understand them, even though I'm not gay. People find love (not just sex) where they can get it.

This topic, I'm afraid, I am at a loss.

I don't believe in choice in most of life's respects (and I challenge anyone to prove that we have choice, and not just the illusion of), but love most certainly is one where I am quite sure that we don't choose anything at all.

Can I ask you something though. Has it ever occurred to you that the Bible might not be 100% correct? I'm not saying it's a bad book (I do stand by the statement that it's long and weird, though), it does contain a lot of sensible advice and some good stories - I could very well see how someone could spend a lifetime trying to take all of it in - but for it's like this. I consider myself somewhat knowledgable on the dogma and history of three religions (Christianity, Islam, and Buddhism), and looking at all the things that are similar, all the things that are different, and the way that all of them have been exploited throughout history, and how they are being exploited today.. actually, it's not just the exploitations, it's the reinterpretations that have gone on throughout every religion's history. Some of the dogma of contemporary American evangelical christianity (like the whole Rapture scenario) are less than two hundred years old and would seem quite bizarre when presented to most other Christians, throughout history as well as today. There's stuff like this in *every* religion, innovations and reinterpretations, and I see that as strong circumstantial evidence that none of them are 100% true.

[Tone Deft]

if a christian's daughter brings home a muslim boyfriend that would cause a rift in the household.

Yeah, because all muslims are terrorists. All black people steal. All jews are stingy.

Stereotype much?

FFS I did NOT use the word muslim in the context you chose to call me out on. racism is a strong motherfucking card you'd best be careful when you play it. I could've used ANY non-christian religion. no offense? call me racist, I'm offended. you think I'm a racist? I'm a pretty stereotypical whiny ass San Francisco liberal FFS!

edit - or did I miss something in your opening sentence?

point that finger at yourself smutek, you're the only one who drew the line from muslim to terrorist. honestly, I think muslim and I think Indian food (maybe it's because I skipped lunch), you think muslim and YOU think terrorist, check YOUR wiring, ease up on the news.

a lot of the shit I wrote in response is just the rhetoric that always pops up in these threads, a laundry list of cliched questions and topics.

OK, I'll admit, I do hate white people, fuckin cracker ass honkey pieces of shit been ruining the world for thousands of years. one of them fuckers gave me a parking ticket the other day, fucking whitey on his power trip.


whoohoo!!! 10 pages!

[pixelbox]

This is definitely one area I haven't quite figured out yet. It is true that animals besides humans do practice homosexuality, and I'm not so sure that I believe that homosexuality is a "choice". The bible does talk about homosexuality in a negative light...I just haven't figured it out yet. I have friends that are gay, and I can certainly understand them, even though I'm not gay. People find love (not just sex) where they can get it.

This topic, I'm afraid, I am at a loss.

spend some time with your gay friends and ask yourself if you can imagine them in a relationship with someone of the opposite sex. ask yourself if they CHOSE to be gay and have the problems and confusion that go along with it. hell, ask them what they think of the topic, "you know, I'm into the Bible and stuff and I'm conflicted on how it views gays, what do you think?"

at least you're being honest, props for that.

I don't discuss it with them because #1, I would not want to hurt their feelings, as they are my friends, and #2 like I said before, I'm not sold on the idea that homosexuality is a CHOICE. Basically, we don't talk about sexual orientation. We talk about more important things.

[Kodama]

On the subject of Bonobo.


You know that the Bonobo and chimp are pretty much the same, and humans seem to be some where in the middle.


When opposing groups of chimps end up in each other's territories, all shit breaks loose.

There is war and death and it's horrible...

When there is a dispute within the ranks, same thing...


But, when bonobos enter each other's territories, a different type of negotiation happens, group sex!

It's laughable, but one group kills and the other has "immoral" activities and lives.


Although I am one to be monogamous, I am also not one to join in war in any way.

If you really think on it, war is the most immoral, the most filthy, the most disgusting orgy possible.

One activity happens to have the moral support of the majority, one does not.

So how does this all compare to homosexuality - one man loving one man?

Who gives a flying fuck?

This world is turning to shit, we kill, mame and taint everything, and some people (who make a god in their image and say that they are in his so that they can now speak in his tongue) judge the morality of consensual sex?

[kabuki]

if a christian's daughter brings home a muslim boyfriend that would cause a rift in the household.

Yeah, because all muslims are terrorists. All black people steal. All jews are stingy.

Stereotype much?

It's interesting to see just how close minded otherwise open minded people can become when discussing religion. And pixelbox did have a point, there are people that try so hard to shit on christianity or other religions that they become exactly like their religious counterparts in their lack of acceptance for other peoples beliefs or lack there of. It's like some people work just as hard to make people not believe as others do to make people believe.

What's the difference?

And sorry if I missed it, this thread has grown since last night, but I don't think I saw pixelbox trying to "save" anyone. I don't even recall him mentioning that he is a christian until he was being pressed about it.

And pixelbox and the other guy both had a point when talking about "real" christianity being about non-violence, acceptance, humility, love thy neighbor, etc. Maybe it is cherry picking, but so what? That's his choice.

And yes, that is very new testament, that's because the new testament is the foundation of christian belief. Birth of christ and all of that. It signified a complete change from a god of wrath, fire and brimstone (ie. lots salty wife, the book of job, etc.) to a compassionate, loving and caring god.

The ideology did a complete 180.

Personally I started to question what I was taught at a very young age. I found it hard to believe that jesus loves me but would send me to face eternal torment over a matter of semantics, like if I called him Buddha or allah instead of jesus, or if I played dungeons and dragons, or had sex before marriage or smoked a joint. It seemed to me that was more my bible study teachers will then it was gods.

I became very anti-religion for a while, but as time went on and I matured I developed my own understanding and also became more accepting of others.

I believe jesus died on the cross. I don't believe in hell. Cherry picking? Damn straight.

And as far as proving the existence of a god. Who cares. I believe in what I believe and I am pretty secure in that so I could give fuck all about somebody trying to disprove my beliefs, whether it's an atheist or a bible thumper, because they are my beliefs and they work for me. I'm open to discussing it, but I'd never try to discredit another persons spiritual beliefs simply because I disagree. And I would certainly never try to push them on someone else to make them believe what I believe.

Religion in and of itself is not a bad thing. It's like guns, guns don't kill.... Ever since the upper paleolithic period man has been searching for answers and man still searches for answers. And ever since the first organized religion there have been people who have exploited and controlled others with it. Religion has been used as a control mechanism for thousands of years, but that does not mean all of its adherents are wrong and it doesn't mean all of its teachers are wrong. It doesn't mean "religious people are pushy". It doesn't mean religion is bad.

I have christian friends, devout christians, and you would have absolutely no idea they were christian unless you asked them. It's their thing.

From reading this thread it seems like a lot of you guys would look down on someone simply because they are christian. What does that make you? Liberal? Forward thinking?

And absolutely no offense against you TD.

I absolutely 100% agree with what you said.

When these people get their beliefs out of my government, off my money, out of my schools, pharmacies and medical labs, and off my public television and radio, then we can all get along.

But they don't see it as anything but their job to convert the non-believers, intimidate the dissenters, threaten the scholars, explode bombs, steal land, and/or stiffle free thought. They set up the paradigm. They picked the fight. I'm just swinging back. I don't care to WIN the fight. I would settle for a draw. Unfortunately, it will get heated before anyone yells uncle, and it won't be me.

[glu]

Chimps are also eliminating the Red Colobus monkeys in some parts, due to their decadent diet. Chimps recently have been observed fashioning spears. Things are getting really interesting in the Congo!

[noisetonepause]

When these people get their beliefs out of my government, off my money, out of my schools, pharmacies and medical labs, and off my public television and radio, then we can all get along.

Isn't it their government, their money, and their schools too?

[noisetonepause]

Chimps are also eliminating the Red Colobus monkeys in some parts, due to their decadent diet. Chimps recently have been observed fashioning spears. Things are getting really interesting in the Congo!

Source?

[Tone Deft]

I don't discuss it with them because #1, I would not want to hurt their feelings, as they are my friends, and #2 like I said before, I'm not sold on the idea that homosexuality is a CHOICE. Basically, we don't talk about sexual orientation. We talk about more important things.

you should, it's a good discussion. my wife's what pop culture would call a 'fag hag', I've had MANY a drunken night discussing gay culture and society with gay friends and strangers, it's a great dialogue to have. maybe your gay friends are holding you at the same arm's length unsure of how you judge them. I highly encourage you to open the topic in a respectful manner, I wish more people could do that, they'd learn a lot.

[pixelbox]

No, I do not attend a church. I do discuss religious beliefs and theology with certain friends of mine from time to time.

was your entire education home schooling or did you go to an institution to learn reading, writing and arithmetic?

I just pulled a straw man...

Seriously, and to be fair, I did go to church at one time in my life. I was even raised Catholic. But due to the extreme hypocrisy that riddles most churches, especially the Catholic church, I don't like going to those places. I did go to "non-denominational" churches for a number of years, but I didn't really find any good there, either. I mean, not to say I am perfect, because I am far from it, I just don't typically go around shoving peoples noses in what I consider wrong. (I guess these forums are the exception, lol. Please forgive me.)

And I went to public school like many others, served in the military, went to college, and taught myself a great many things by reading a shit-load of books.

So as you can guess....Liberal Democrats? They hate me. Fundamentalist Christians? They hate me. Atheists? They hate me. But I don't care. I am who I am. I believe God loves me, despite how fucked up I am. That's good enough.

[smutek]

FFS I did NOT use the word muslim in the context you chose to call me out on. racism is a strong motherfucking card you'd best be careful when you play it. I could've used ANY non-christian religion. no offense? call me racist, I'm offended. you think I'm a racist? I'm a pretty stereotypical whiny ass San Francisco liberal FFS!

edit - or did I miss something in your opening sentence?

Yes, my point. You kind of missed it. I wasn't accusing you of being racist, I was accusing you of stereotyping. Besides, christians and muslims come from all sorts of races. What I wrote were examples of other common stereotypes to show you that they are all ugly.

[Tone Deft]

No, I do not attend a church. I do discuss religious beliefs and theology with certain friends of mine from time to time.

was your entire education home schooling or did you go to an institution to learn reading, writing and arithmetic?

I just pulled a straw man...

Seriously, and to be fair, I did go to church at one time in my life. I was even raised Catholic. But due to the extreme hypocrisy that riddles most churches, especially the Catholic church, I don't like going to those places. I did go to "non-denominational" churches for a number of years, but I didn't really find any good there, either. I mean, not to say I am perfect, because I am far from it, I just don't typically go around shoving peoples noses in what I consider wrong. (I guess these forums are the exception, lol. Please forgive me.)

And I went to public school like many others, served in the military, went to college, and taught myself a great many things by reading a shit-load of books.

So as you can guess....Liberal Democrats? They hate me. Fundamentalist Christians? They hate me. Atheists? They hate me. But I don't care. I am who I am. I believe God loves me, despite how fucked up I am. That's good enough.

ya never know, besides, churches are a great way to pick up chicks. do your thing, walk your path, at least you're thinking about it all.

[kabuki]

When these people get their beliefs out of my government, off my money, out of my schools, pharmacies and medical labs, and off my public television and radio, then we can all get along.

Isn't it their government, their money, and their schools too?

It's theirs as citizens. Not as religeous peoples.Not according to the Constitution of the United States of America.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Separation ... _and_state

Technically, the White House is mine, but I'll be damned if they let me write a bunch religeous mumbo jumbo about Zeus, Spaghetti Monsters or druids on the side with a can of spraypaint.

If these fucks want to put their beliefs on my laws, they need to be paying taxes like any other lobbying corporation. That won't happen either because when it is brought up, they site "separation of church and state." I would preferr they don't pay taxes, and they get out of my grill.

I think it is equally sad that innocent people got killed or hurt by some nut job with a gun as I am by the statement of the governor of Colorado that it is "especially horrible that it happened in a Church". This man is supposed to be representing all of his constituents equally. Doesn't sound like it to me. That bastard should be fired. And people in the church should be outraged that he said such a thing.

[Tone Deft]

FFS I did NOT use the word muslim in the context you chose to call me out on. racism is a strong motherfucking card you'd best be careful when you play it. I could've used ANY non-christian religion. no offense? call me racist, I'm offended. you think I'm a racist? I'm a pretty stereotypical whiny ass San Francisco liberal FFS!

edit - or did I miss something in your opening sentence?

Yes, my point. You kind of missed it. I wasn't accusing you of being racist, I was accusing you of stereotyping. Besides, christians and muslims come from all sorts of races. What I wrote were examples of other common stereotypes to show you that they are all ugly.

ahhhh... I do believe that parents of religion X want their kids to date and marry people from religion X. that's the stereotype? whereas atheist parents would just think, little Susie found a boyfriend and he's into religion X, oh well, what can we do. I don't think those parents would encourage their kids to seek an atheist kid.

something didn't seem right, didn't sound like you.