Democracy still works. Bill a no go

[Tone Deft]

riiiighhhhhht.

pesky experts. So when choosing financial advice, is your criteria that your advisor has no experience in the finance sector?

(not that im convinced that theres a lot of science in the social science of Economics, but thats another thread)

that's exactly why these threads suck on this forum. if someone knows what they're saying it's lost in the noise. completely pointless source of information by dozens of self proclaimed experts. best to just put the people that start these threads on ignore, you'll find that you don't miss any real forum content.

I thought that's what makes it kind of fun

like Mr. Myagi trying to catch a fly with chopsticks

yeah, 'cept some of us keep poking ourselves in the eye.

my family and peers are pretty caught up and affected by current events, so I'm already fired up when I read stuff on here, then it's all crazy.

funny how the markets didn't crash until the day the news outlets caught a hold of reality. and all this in an election year? nobody's looking to Iraq as a money drain? meh, hold tight, ride it out.

[NorthernMonkey]

Stop stoking the fire Tone, Dow Jones 12 month:

http://money.cnn.com/quote/chart/chart. ... 0&maval=60

On a side note, Sarah Palin just appeared on Sky News - how can anyone take that seriously?

[majestic]

nobody's looking to Iraq as a money drain?

USD 3 trillion and counting...

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/co ... 02846.html

[Machinesworking]

You know what, fuck it, I'm going to be honest - the current global financial situation scares me shitless and if something isn't done soon to rescue this mess we are all going to feel the effects of this for a very long time. I genuinely hope the bail-out is passed and we can get back to normal as soon as possible.

Hell I think we all know you're scared of the consequences of this. Some of us are also scared of statements like the one Bernanke made after Ron Paul asked him where the money would come from?
I still am curious as to what you think of it. Not what you think of Ron Paul or his opinion, but the answer given that points to this Bernanke (FRB chair) fellow not giving a shit about real finances??? I dunno I'm an admitted amateur in economics, but I know that it's pretty tough to swallow a bail out that will very probably take the next chunk out of the US economy and possible derail us even further down the line?
What's your take on it?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TcuppSvQ ... re=related

Just got to say it, besides his pro life and big fence on the border between us and Mexico stances, I really like Ron Paul.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dv6rQ0U0 ... ef=profile

[longjohns]

ah fuck it

[Homebelly]

Expertise is great, but to devalue any other opinion simply because they are not a pro is too much compartmentalization IMO.

Expertise is every thing. The problem though, at least it seems to me, is that learning to become an expert can quite often open a window into how boring the subject you are an expert in really is.
Most people on the out side usually come to a topic they know very little about with a level of expectation, when an expert doesn't meet that level they go find an expert that does. Mean while the guy that actually does know what he is talking about gets accused of being to far inside that he is probably biased or worse, closed minded.

[deva]

Huge anti bailout protest on Wall Street subject to mainstream media BLACKOUT!
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=096_1222744802


House limits constituent e-mails to prevent crash
http://thehill.com/leading-the-news/hou ... 09-30.html

The House is limiting e-mails from the public to prevent its websites from crashing due to the enormous amount of mail being submitted on the financial bailout bill.

[deva]

couple quotes from an article

Congressman Chris Van Hollen, one of 95 mainly liberal Democrats who voted no (140 voted yes), said his office had received 3,000 phone calls, 3,000 emails, with 100 people being against the bill for every one who was for it.



But Niceville, like the rest of America, is hurting. "People are feeling the crunch, the tightness of money," said Mrs Boudreaux. "We are seeing home foreclosures big time. But the word I'm getting from everyone – and I agree – is that we do not want this bail-out.

"It's not that we don't want to address the problem but the people who lent the money need to be made accountable for what they did. Bailing them out is not good stewardship."

[Emissary]

you havent said anything about my last post northernmonkey? did you read it?

here it is again incase you missed it

Sorry, i could give you a Hell of alot more random pages if you want. I don't pretend to know everything about how the stock market works. BUT i do read what the experts say on both sides of the fence. When it comes down to Paulson, Bush and bernanke vs ron paul. i dont think there is any sane man who would choose the path that those 3 lunatics want, over the path offered up by not only ron paul, but many well respected economists.

i will give you some more "random" web pages now

http://www.zogby.com/Soundbites/ReadClips.dbm?ID=18369
http://news.yahoo.com/s/politico/200809 ... tico/13689
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid= ... vlLMejTsM0
http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/0 ... /#more-906
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/co ... v=hcmodule
http://www.cnbc.com/id/26441422
http://abcnews.go.com/print?id=5887486
http://www.rgemonitor.com/roubini-monit ... _is_flawed
http://www.ndn.org/ndnthinking/keeppeop ... rhomes.pdf

and a video of ron paul giving bernanke a telling off

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dv6rQ0U0 ... ef=profile

[Machinesworking]

Expertise is great, but to devalue any other opinion simply because they are not a pro is too much compartmentalization IMO.

Expertise is every thing. The problem though, at least it seems to me, is that learning to become an expert can quite often open a window into how boring the subject you are an expert in really is.
Most people on the out side usually come to a topic they know very little about with a level of expectation, when an expert doesn't meet that level they go find an expert that does. Mean while the guy that actually does know what he is talking about gets accused of being to far inside that he is probably biased or worse, closed minded.

What's really cool though is when experts offer up no explanations at all, but accuse you of being ignorant. I love that, makes me feel all warm inside.

Seriously I don't mind being schooled, and I don't even mind if the explanation isn't what I want to hear, but i do mind when I'm told that there will be no explanation and I should just accept the words of experts. I think we might even agree that that's not a tolerable scenario. Unless the term 'friendly fascism' makes sense to you.

[Landwhale]

PostPosted: Wed Oct 01, 2008 6:58 am Post subject:
Huge anti bailout protest on Wall Street subject to mainstream media BLACKOUT!
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=096_1222744802


House limits constituent e-mails to prevent crash
http://thehill.com/leading-the-news/hou ... 09-30.html

The House is limiting e-mails from the public to prevent its websites from crashing due to the enormous amount of mail being submitted on the financial bailout bill.

Oh Deva, you crazy crazy consipracy nut, I'm sure they were planning to cover it on "the news". They couldn't possibly have intentionally blacked it out, I mean, they must have technical problems or something. If that's not the reason, then maybe they were too busy to cover it. What are you trying to suggest here?
More conspiracy theory? God, you conspiracy freaks never quit do you? What do you think, that some shadowy U.S. government space creature celebrity robots are all ganging up on us stupid humans, trying to trick us all again?
I won't believe it. Crazy talk. Where are your sources? What are your credentials? What is your personal background? Where do you work? Where have you worked before? Do you have a history of mental disease? Are you on meds? With ideas like yours, you really should be on medication you know.

[forge]

Friends,

Everyone said the bill would pass. The masters of the universe were already making celebratory dinner reservations at Manhattan's finest restaurants. Personal shoppers in Dallas and Atlanta were dispatched to do the early Christmas gifting. Mad Men of Chicago and Miami were popping corks and toasting each other long before the morning latte run.

But what they didn't know was that hundreds of thousands of Americans woke up yesterday morning and decided it was time for revolt. The politicians never saw it coming. Millions of phone calls and emails hit Congress so hard it was as if Marshall Dillon, Elliot Ness and Dog the Bounty Hunter had descended on D.C. to stop the looting and arrest the thieves.

The Corporate Crime of the Century was halted by a vote of 228 to 205. It was rare and historic; no one could remember a time when a bill supported by the president and the leadership of both parties went down in defeat. That just never happens.

A lot of people are wondering why the right wing of the Republican Party joined with the left wing of the Democratic Party in voting down the thievery. Forty percent of Democrats and two-thirds of Republicans voted against the bill.

Here's what happened:

The presidential race may still be close in the polls, but the Congressional races are pointing toward a landslide for the Democrats. Few dispute the prediction that the Republicans are in for a whoopin' on November 4th. Up to 30 Republican House seats could be lost in what would be a stunning repudiation of their agenda.

The Republican reps are so scared of losing their seats, when this "financial crisis" reared its head two weeks ago, they realized they had just been handed their one and only chance to separate themselves from Bush before the election, while doing something that would make them look like they were on the side of "the people."

Watching C-Span yesterday morning was one of the best comedy shows I'd seen in ages. There they were, one Republican after another who had backed the war and sunk the country into record debt, who had voted to kill every regulation that would have kept Wall Street in check -- there they were, now crying foul and standing up for the little guy! One after another, they stood at the microphone on the House floor and threw Bush under the bus, under the train (even though they had voted to kill off our nation's trains, too), heck, they would've thrown him under the rising waters of the Lower Ninth Ward if they could've conjured up another hurricane. You know how your dog acts when sprayed by a skunk? He howls and runs around trying to shake it off, rubbing and rolling himself on every piece of your carpet, trying to get rid of the stench. That's what it looked like on the Republican side of the aisle yesterday, and it was a sight to behold.

The 95 brave Dems who broke with Barney Frank and Chris Dodd were the real heroes, just like those few who stood up and voted against the war in October of 2002. Watch the remarks from yesterday of Reps. Marcy Kaptur, Sheila Jackson Lee, and Dennis Kucinich. They spoke the truth.

The Dems who voted for the giveaway did so mostly because they were scared by the threats of Wall Street, that if the rich didn't get their handout, the market would go nuts and then it's bye-bye stock-based pension and retirement funds.

And guess what? That's exactly what Wall Street did! The largest, single-day drop in the Dow in the history of the New York Stock exchange. The news anchors last night screamed it out: Americans just lost 1.2 trillion dollars in the stock market!! It's a financial Pearl Harbor! The sky is falling! Bird flu! Killer Bees!

Of course, sane people know that nobody "lost" anything yesterday, that stocks go up and down and this too shall pass because the rich will now buy low, hold, then sell off, then buy low again.

But for now, Wall Street and its propaganda arm (the networks and media it owns) will continue to try and scare the bejesus out of you. It will be harder to get a loan. Some people will lose their jobs. A weak nation of wimps won't last long under this torture. Or will we? Is this our line in the sand?

Here's my guess: The Democratic leadership in the House secretly hoped all along that this lousy bill would go down. With Bush's proposals shredded, the Dems knew they could then write their own bill that favors the average American, not the upper 10% who were hoping for another kegger of gold.

So the ball is in the Democrats' hands. The gun from Wall Street remains at their head. Before they make their next move, let me tell you what the media kept silent about while this bill was being debated:

1. The bailout bill had NO enforcement provisions for the so-called oversight group that was going to monitor Wall Street's spending of the $700 billion;

2. It had NO penalties, fines or imprisonment for any executive who might steal any of the people's money;

3. It did NOTHING to force banks and lenders to rewrite people's mortgages to avoid foreclosures -- this bill would not have stopped ONE foreclosure!;

4. It had NO teeth anywhere in the entire piece of legislation, using words like "suggested" when referring to the government being paid back for the bailout;

5. Over 200 economists wrote to Congress and said this bill might actually WORSEN the "financial crisis" and cause even MORE of a meltdown.

Put a fork in this slab of pork. It's over. Now it is time for our side to state very clearly the laws WE want passed. I will send you my proposals later today. We've bought ourselves less than 72 hours.

Yours,
Michael Moore

[deva]

PostPosted: Wed Oct 01, 2008 6:58 am Post subject:
Huge anti bailout protest on Wall Street subject to mainstream media BLACKOUT!
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=096_1222744802


House limits constituent e-mails to prevent crash
http://thehill.com/leading-the-news/hou ... 09-30.html

The House is limiting e-mails from the public to prevent its websites from crashing due to the enormous amount of mail being submitted on the financial bailout bill.

Oh Deva, you crazy crazy consipracy nut, I'm sure they were planning to cover it on "the news". They couldn't possibly have intentionally blacked it out, I mean, they must have technical problems or something. If that's not the reason, then maybe they were too busy to cover it. What are you trying to suggest here?
More conspiracy theory? God, you conspiracy freaks never quit do you? What do you think, that some shadowy U.S. government space creature celebrity robots are all ganging up on us stupid humans, trying to trick us all again?
I won't believe it. Crazy talk. Where are your sources? What are your credentials? What is your personal background? Where do you work? Where have you worked before? Do you have a history of mental disease? Are you on meds? With ideas like yours, you really should be on medication you know.

Yeah, I'm freakin nuts... Some years back I heard voices in my head and they said, Deva, the media is all owned by big corporations and so naturally the media does what those corporations want them to including lies by fact or omission.

Pretty crazy huh?!

Seriously... when millions upon millions of people clearly know that there are no WMD's in Iraq, only willful ignorance on the part of the media with all its vast resources can explain their unquestioned support for Bush's lies.

Such a 'mistake' is not possible. The media did not report, they just passed on White House press releases as fact. Better then to call the corporate media The Ministry of Propaganda.

"The Central Intelligence Agency owns everyone of any significance in the major media."
William Colby - former Director of the CIA

"Beware the newspapers, for they will have you loving the oppressors, and hating the people being oppressed "
Malcolm X

[forge]

"Journalists are unable, seemingly, to discriminate between a bicycle accident and the collapse of civilization.”

- George Bernard Shaw

[fatrabbit]

Does anyone else think that the bailout was rejected because Bush made such a big deal that people's faces would melt if it weren't passed? The last time he made such a big deal was Iraq - so maybe people won't buy it so easily because of their track record?