when you do a live show, do you find yourself putting a bric

Opus · Post by **Opus** » Fri Dec 05, 2008 10:59 am

i try to get my mix as near 0db with out ever touching it. I try to keep as much dynamics as I possibly can. Squashed dynamics have no life in them..
But sometimes, a limiter can help eliminate unwanted peaks by filters and effects. Other than that, some times I use a very very small amount of gain in a analog modeled compressor on the master just to bring the floor up a bit so those quiet sounds aren't completely lost. Typically, when mixing, I sometimes use a juggling technique when different parts of the song come in, as long as tracks don't sound like they disappear in the mix after the adjustments. As far as EQ, right, every environment has a specific resonant frequency, but I try to keep the EQ as near flat as I can, then make adjustments depending on the venue. And when I do, it's always to cut frequencies, and never boost them.

donno if any one has advice to add to that. I just try to tamper with things a little as possible, and only make changes when it required.

crumhorn · Post by **crumhorn** » Fri Dec 05, 2008 11:30 am

Pitch Black wrote:And another thing...

If you have your kick drums and bass separated from your mixes (ie in separate tracks inside Live) the very fact that you can EQ & volume either, or both, of these individually will enable you to get the most apparent volume out of the PA, while the system does the least work.

How? Every space has a resonant frequency. A set of nodes that will sound apparently louder with the same amount of energy going into them. A quick tweak of the EQ on your kick and bass separately, and you can tune into the frequencies that "work" in the room - that sound loudest because of the physics and dimensions of the venue. You get the most amount of volume for the least amount of PA power.

This gives you the most solid foundation to build your mix on. By the end of each track... and cumulatively, by the end of the night, you'll be absolutely HUMMING!

YMMV. This is just the result of my personal experience - we run 16-20 stems of audio for each song which is a lot. The more stems / tracks you have un-premixed together, the easier it is to make a mix sound huge, on the night, in that room - without resorting to compression.

At the very least have your kick and bass separate.

Do your mixes as best you can at home, leave them "open" inside Live, and take your laptop into a club on a Monday night when they're closed. Set up on the dancefloor and play loud. Now push your mix around so that it sounds mighty, and save the Live project. This is now the gigging version of your song. Adapt this gigging set over weeks and months as you move from room to room, you'll soon learn where the potential "peaky" problems are. As a general rule, less mids, and less Q on filters for live use.

PRE-MIXED, OVER-MASTERED STUFF SOUNDS BORING!!! ...over the course of a night.

(Yes, i am an old fart)

Reminds me of a Zion Train gig I went to a few years back. I'll never forget it because it was the loudest gig I've ever been at - by a long way - but also sounded brilliant, and I'm sure they were doing exactly what you just described. The whole building was resonating to the bass - at one point I felt as if my kneecaps were going to fall off, they were vibrating so much, but the sound system didn't seem to be working that hard. I had to leave before the end and as I walked away from the venue the whole building seemed to be acting like some kind of huge bass speaker - I could still hear it loud an clear from about half a mile away!

j2j · Post by **j2j** » Fri Dec 05, 2008 3:38 pm

Thank you everybody for your insights, responses, and coolness in technique.

Pitch Black · Post by **Pitch Black** » Fri Dec 05, 2008 10:09 pm

Robert Henke wrote: the DJ mixer at some point acts like a soft clipper anyway,

Aye. We make a point of trying to avoid going thru the DJ mixer at all times. We can't always have it that way, but we always try to go as directly into the PA as possible.

nbinder · Post by **nbinder** » Fri Dec 05, 2008 10:37 pm

Pitch Black wrote:
Robert Henke wrote: the DJ mixer at some point acts like a soft clipper anyway,
Aye. We make a point of trying to avoid going thru the DJ mixer at all times. We can't always have it that way, but we always try to go as directly into the PA as possible.

Still the Amp itself (or let's say most of the newer ones) has a limiter in it afaik. But if you come near the level that limiter starts limiting, you're either too loud or the PA is too small.

Pitch Black · Post by **Pitch Black** » Fri Dec 05, 2008 10:40 pm

nbinder wrote:@Pitch Black:

Great Idea, but for best results you should be able to leave the stage and readjust the sound during the gig.

Why? Because the room characteristics drastically change when it is crowded.

I agree with you. It's a paradox that usually the place you're mixing from is usually the worst place in the room for monitoring: behind the line of the PA and out of direct throw from the speakers.

SO... two scenarios:

1. You arrive at the venue in the afternoon to set up and sound-check. Once your gear is rigged and connected, and you have the PA going at gig volume and the monitors going, jump back and forth between them and try to establish that you are hearing roughly the same amount of mids and tops from the monitors onstage/in the DJ booth, and out front on the dance floor. Sure there will be different levels of bass and subs between the two positions, but remember - bass and subs are non-directional: get the tops and mids right [ie sounding approximately the same in the monitors and out front], and you will still be able to judge reasonably accurately what is happening in the room from your playing position.

2. You arrive during the gig, or can't have a sound-check. From the stage/DJ booth LISTEN to what the act before you sounds like from the playing position, and then immediately jump out front and LISTEN to what it sounds like out there. Do this a couple of times to be sure. So you can store in your mind "ooh the monitors are really bright in the booth" or "gosh the sub sounds much tighter out front".

And yes, there's absolutely nothing wrong with jumping down the front for 30sec during your gig to see what it sounds like. Just hold your chin up slightly like Barack Obama, and turn your head attentively and be seen to be assiduously checking the sound - it's a good way to meet your "front row", too...

Or ask over the mic "how's it sounding out there? Is it loud enough?"

Of course in an ideal world, there is a dedicated, professional and sympathetic venue sound engineer out the front who only has your best interests at heart, and is motivated to constantly monitor the PA system, and make any necessary adjustments to give punters the best experience over the whole night. But you can't have that ideal all the time.

nbinder · Post by **nbinder** » Fri Dec 05, 2008 10:50 pm

Pitch Black wrote:Or ask over the mic "how's it sounding out there? Is it loud enough?"

How about "Should i raise the 2khz band?"

The thing about the warmup DJ is so true, as long as he isn't too "creative" with the DJ EQ (I've been in clubs where they didn't turn down the bass amp and instead told the DJ to lower the bass EQ.... what a crap!).

Also true about the sound engineers, I've met a lot of guys acting like they were the world most wanted sound engineer, drawing senseless sinewaves on their grahpics eq and accidently even boasting the frequencies you would have liked to be turned down.

But hey... that's one of the differences between -some- live act and a good live act. As long as you know how to deal with it, you can use it as your strength to achieve what you pointed out:

"That was the best sound I ever heard here"

Pitch Black · Post by **Pitch Black** » Fri Dec 05, 2008 11:32 pm

nbinder wrote:
Pitch Black wrote:Or ask over the mic "how's it sounding out there? Is it loud enough?"
How about "Should i raise the 2khz band?"

In a funny way, you can do that... Or at least you should be able to tell. Push up a frequency and feel the vibe. Did you feel a surge of energy from the dancefloor? Or did they cringe and frown? OK I'm being a bit satirical here... but WATCH and LISTEN...

A favourite bit of knowing wisdom I got from bensuthers describing an audience as a "typical Gatecrasher crowd":

"You turn it up: they scream.

You turn it off: they scream.

You turn it up/off/up/off/up/off: they explode."

j2j · Post by **j2j** » Fri Dec 05, 2008 11:37 pm

Pitch Black wrote: A favourite bit of knowing wisdom I got from bensuthers describing an audience as a "typical Gatecrasher crowd":

"You turn it up: they scream.

You turn it off: they scream.

You turn it up/off/up/off/up/off: they explode."

Brilliant!

Pitch Black · Post by **Pitch Black** » Sat Dec 06, 2008 12:56 am

nbinder wrote:"Should i raise the 2khz band?"

In my opinion, this cuts to a fundamental difference between live acts and DJs. If you are playing pre-mixed tracks, that's all you can do: push up a frequency and see what happens. If you are playing live you can push up a part and see what happens.

Both have the same objective: enhance the vibe and increase the net level of good times in the room. But you can be so much more effective if you can do it inside the mix by pushing things to the fore to suit that night, that room, that system, and that crowd. Same goes for cutting things out/muting parts. So much more effective if done inside the mix, rather than just EQing them out.

You acquire skill at doing this... and presto you're a truly LIVE act. Punters come to understand that what you do, in collaboration with their vibe, makes a huge difference - all the difference in the world, in fact. Joe Punter knows that anything could happen, at any moment. You get a reputation as putting on a great live show... the music scene is enhanced... and fame and fortune beckons...

[Disclaimer: I'm not trying to DJ-bash here, just trying to demonstrate how playing live has an extra built-in ability to be a fundamentally transcendent experience]

nbinder · Post by **nbinder** » Sat Dec 06, 2008 1:24 am

Don't quote me to hard on that, just wanted to alter the question to a more funny one... imagine their faces like "what the hell does he want from me?"

How much you can do on the mixing desk depends on what you are doing live (mixing audio clips, controlling synths or even playing on the keyboard/breath controller) and how many you are. You guys are two... that doubles the capabilities overall. For me doing as much as possible as a single person, I have to do some shortage until my third arm starts growing. This means: Some parts have to be prepared to a much greater extend and the mixing has also to be prepared somehow, as I dislike "playing live" simply tweaking the channels, EQs etc. It's a small part of what I'm doing and also depends on your style of music and live performance. I know what you guys do and for your sound it sounds a bit more possible, right now I can't imagine how I could do it in a similar way. My live set is much more in a structured way, less experiments. That can be a plus, but doesn't have to. Too much is chaos, without any it's like playing playback.
As you said: In a perfect world there is this super nice sound engineer, he is in the middle of the audience and he knows exactly what your sound concept is. Well, I'm not Tiesto (nor do I have the same budget)

I agree that DJs compared to real Live Acts look a bit like a joke. They play 2 records simultanously and the only ways to react to the crowd is when-to-mix and what-to-bring-next plus FX and loops for the modern ones (Also no DJ-bash, I did it for a long time and right now I simply don't find it that exiting for myself for the just mentioned reason).

I think I forgot what I finally wanted to point out - gettin late here

Oh... and I love the discussion! Great to talk to you all about your experiences and get more input.

Pitch Black · Post by **Pitch Black** » Sat Dec 06, 2008 2:48 am

In answer to that, I would say: if you can take 8 stems, or tracks of a song, in Live... and be able to control volume and EQ on each stem. Only other thing: Each channel has 2 effect sends: a send to a Simple Delay, and a send to a reverb; that would be a formidable way to begin! In answer to the anticipated "but what can I do live with that?" question, let me refer you to the whole history of Jamaican Dub music, and its offshoots...

Dub can be thought of not just as a genre, but a set of studio techniques that will work with any style of music.

8 simultaneous stereo tracks from Live is well within the range of today's laptops.

So, you have these 8 stems, what can you do live with them?

For a start, you can EQ and volume each stem to suit the room - really this means get the kick and bass working in the space, as mentioned above. Half the battle from a purely sonic perspective. Wanna add some super-hifi to the top end of that perc for a bit? Yeah. Done.

You can... punch up the kick 2db to maximise a rock-out section. If you're up loud, 2db is a Big Push. You can cut the kick for a bar at a major turning point in the song, and when it comes back in: OH SHIT its got a huge reverb on it, on the One! BOOOM! bastard! I didn't expect that! wicked!!... what else you got for me? SLAM! one snare into the delay (now that part of the beat's carrying me further than I expected!)... AND NOW THE LEAD IS BACK LOUDER!! OMG!!! OMG!!!

*Please note I just described a grand total of 2 spontaneous bars of music... imagine what you can do for a whole song if you keep that level of activity up? [And before you smart-asses ask, you could just as easily f!ck it up as well, I grant you that - it's knowing when to do it...]

Now what if you could do it off hardware? What if you could as be truly physical and spontaneous with the music as when you're on the dance floor? What if you didn't need to look at a computer

I've just described just one person playing off a 8-ch mixer with two sends. Whether it's hardware or software, that's conceptually easy...

Notice we have not yet visited altering the time-line, or changing the arrangement at gigs? Just been playing 8 song-length stems, is all. Just like the old guys off tape, that's all they had.

BUT NOW... [big Movie Announcer voice] There is ABLETON LIVE, a new and revolutionary way to... Break the time-line. Chop things up. To Trigger and Re-Trigger at will in as random or controlled a manner as desired. To lengthen / to skip or abort if necessary / in short, TO CHANGE ANYTHING. AT WILL!!!...

Notice also, we have not yet begun to get into "physically playing" any virtual instruments, or even drum/percussion parts etc (in the strict old-school sense of "playing") so far... we've just been re-triggering previously-made recordings.

Do ya see where I'm going here?

Ah...f*ck it! have a look at this...

http://vimeo.com/6281034

Woohoo! Managed to pimp both myself, and Ableton in one post YEAH!

roach808 · Post by **roach808** » Sat Dec 06, 2008 4:01 am

On a side note, as a live sound engineer this is rather funny to read. Just thought I would throw that in there, btw.....

Pitch Black · Post by **Pitch Black** » Sat Dec 06, 2008 4:05 am

funny as in humorous? ...or funny as in ... ?

Kindly elaborate, good sir!

roach808 · Post by **roach808** » Sat Dec 06, 2008 4:21 am

Pitch Black wrote:funny as in humorous? ...or funny as in ... ?

Kindly elaborate, good sir!

Let put it this way Paddy, if I was mixing Pitch Black live at the FOH (front of house) position you would be my hero's indeed. Not many peeps give much mind to dynamics or range. Its just nice to have a live act be into that kind of stuff for a change, intstead of "we just want to turn it up to 11" kinda crap I've had to put up with in the past.