Ableton Forum

Here is an article from an Isreali newspaper:

http://www.ynet.co.il/english/articles/ ... 44,00.html

In case you can't be arsed reading it in its entirety, I quote the begining of the article:

"SDEROT – Palestinian terrorists fired eight Qassam rockets at the southern town of Sderot and its vicinity on Friday. No injuries were reported in the latest barrage.
One of the rockets landed in Sderot’s Neve Eshkol neighborhood, causing slight damage to a house in the area. Another rocket landed near a school in the town, while the others apparently landed in open areas"

Note the words '8 rockets' + 'no injuries' + 'slight damage to a house'

Here are just a few pictures of the isreali response:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/gallery ... =341111290

Anyone of sane mind would have to agree that the response is dissproportionate.

that must be because one zionists house is worth 300 palestinian lives i suppose. Notice how i say zionists and not jew, thats because the two couldn't be further apart. The jews are a beautiful peace loving people. The zionists are gits hiding behind the jewish religion , kind of like george bush and the Christian faith.

smutek wrote: I read Martin Gilberts "the Holcaust" and it reaffirms my deep sorrow, compassion and sympathy for the great tragedy of the Jewish people, one of the vilest tragedy's ever perpetrated against any people, anywhere.
......and Gandhi.

for sure, it was awful, but it is worth remembering that as you say it was only one of "the vilest tragedy's ever perpetrated against any people, anywhere." The Tasmanian Aborginies for example are actually now extinct. There are descendants of them who have intermarried (read: women were raped and forced to marry white people) but there is not a single full blood Tasmanian Aborigine left, and they were systematically murdered and slaughtered like vermin - considered rural pests. Likewise the mainland Aboriginal people have experienced extremely vile persecution ever since white man arrived here. It's been the same in your country.

Then there were other things like Stalin's 20 million.

And not to mention the hideous stuff still going on in Africa daily.

The reason all of this is relevant - none of these people were given a "promised land" that was already inhabited to make up for it. It seems the Jews have more of a voice.

But it was actually disproportionate that the Jews were given Israel in the first place - as Gandhi said in your quote, they should have been "Jews in France etc just like Christians in France etc......

But having said all of this, they are there now, and that is not going to change. What they did today would have created 1000 more "freedom fighters" and kids who will now blow themselves up for the cause.

But it's a tough situation - what others here have said is absolutely right - if a few mexicans lobbed rockets into California the response would no doubt be equally disproportionate, and in a sense the Iraq war is probably an example of that, especially seeing as Iraq had fuck all to do with 9/11 - the US just needed someone to bomb, and now the Iraqi dead is probably somewhere around a million.

I can't help thinking there must be some lessons the Israeli's could learn from Northern Ireland, seeing as Ulster was more or less exactly the same thing - I don't think the usual response to IRA bombings was on a scale seen today, and it has at long last quietened down there. Personally I know very little about how/why that was resolved (even though my own family left the region at the height of the troubles probably for exactly that reason - "funky shit" is from up that way, maybe he can tell us more! ) but my personal feeling is that times have just moved on and Ireland is a much more prosperous place today, so there isn't the same kind of oppression that there was.

It would take time, but considering how much the Palestinians are suffering I can't see how they will ever stop attacking Israel as long as they are suffering that much. So Israel needs to put their energy into making sure Palestine is a comfortable and prosperous place for the Palestinians so that they stop feeling so angry - maybe that is when they will stop getting bombed.

Sadly I can't see that happening, and in fact the whole thing is a real worry in terms of escalation.

blackboab wrote:Here is an article from an Isreali newspaper:

http://www.ynet.co.il/english/articles/ ... 44,00.html

In case you can't be arsed reading it in its entirety, I quote the begining of the article:

"SDEROT – Palestinian terrorists fired eight Qassam rockets at the southern town of Sderot and its vicinity on Friday. No injuries were reported in the latest barrage.
One of the rockets landed in Sderot’s Neve Eshkol neighborhood, causing slight damage to a house in the area. Another rocket landed near a school in the town, while the others apparently landed in open areas"

Note the words '8 rockets' + 'no injuries' + 'slight damage to a house'

Here are just a few pictures of the isreali response:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/gallery ... =341111290

Anyone of sane mind would have to agree that the response is dissproportionate.

but there is another point that has to also be read there and that is:

Another rocket landed near a school in the town

don't know about you, but if a rocket landed near my son's school I'd feel pretty damn angry and want to bomb the bastards that did it

forge wrote: I can't help thinking there must be some lessons the Israeli's could learn from Northern Ireland, seeing as Ulster was more or less exactly the same thing - I don't think the usual response to IRA bombings was on a scale seen today, and it has at long last quietened down there. Personally I know very little about how/why that was resolved (even though my own family left the region at the height of the troubles probably for exactly that reason - "funky shit" is from up that way, maybe he can tell us more! ) but my personal feeling is that times have just moved on and Ireland is a much more prosperous place today, so there isn't the same kind of oppression that there was.

I'll not get into the whole background but i live in Northern Ireland, which is still apart of the United Kingdown. The fighting was between nationalist/republicans/catholics and protestants/british troops/very secatarian police force.
At the minute everything is peaceful apart from some news reports of protestants and catholics fighting. I think its hilarious as i know for CERTAIN, that they dont even know the difference between their faiths.

I was born into a very catholic (i dont believe in god) family in the 90s so I was never involved in any of the interment/police brutallity you hear about.

My personal view about Northern Ireland is, I dont care.
The people who still do the fighting tend to be scumbags anyway so let them rot away.

funky shit wrote: The people who still do the fighting tend to be scumbags anyway so let them rot away.

I think you've nailed it there - probably just like the handful of Palestinians who are firing the rockets into Israel - some half witted thugs who have an excuse to be violent and ruin it for every one and make it so everyone ends up involved or affected, and the more people that get hurt, the more want to retaliate and so on

forge wrote:

funky shit wrote: The people who still do the fighting tend to be scumbags anyway so let them rot away.

I think you've nailed it there - probably just like the Palestinians who are firing the rockets into Israel - some half witted thugs who have an excuse to be violent and ruin it for every one and make it so everyone ends up involved or affected, and the more people that get hurt, the more want to retaliate and so on

Exactly. War totaly passes the initial cause at some point. Im sure most Palestinians are now joining the fightm not because of religion or land. But because their family/friends/children have been killed or injured.

Just like here during the 60s 70s and 80s.

disproportionate? i can tell u what i consider disproportionate: attacking a country because of its oil while pretending they got weapons of mass destruction.

Women of the world, take over!

I'm not going to attempt to argue or justify what is right or wrong here, but from a strategic military standpoint, if peace treaties between two armies repeatedly fail, it makes sense that one side would eventually attempt to eliminate the other with overwhelming force.

hmm,
i would say, the israelis are stronger and fewer than the muslims down there.
they want to live in their place without suicide bombers and kazzam missiles raining down on them so they stay agressive.

this is what the (rich) western world is doing to the (poor) rest of the world, its called globalized capitalism,

so wtf?

303

very very sad...
this attack by Israel ...(where I live)
...though very sad...was Inevitable...
there have been talks about it for a long time...
the Israeli towns outside the Gaza strip are fired upon daily for the past 3 years now...
because of that... and because the HAMAS refuses to honor a truce...
the defence cabinet OK'd a military operation...
the Egyptians had tried to stop this from happening ... but to no avail
(btw HAMAS had not stopped firing during the so called calm arranged by Egypt)
the govenments in Israel are always striving for peace...
because that's the will of most citizens here...
but cannot AFFORD to look weak to it's arab neighbours because then it's game over.
in a region where aggression and force are respected...

logically...
if you try to intimidate and terrorize citizens of a country...
and that country has an army...
it's that country's government's responsibility to ensure it's citizens safety...
first in the short term... then the long...
if diplomacy fails...it MUST resort to use that army...

Israel's army... like any other army...
is not really built to combat Guerrilla fighters firing from civilian territories...
it has been the same with HEZBOLLAH... in Lebanon...
where civillians are used as shields/camouflage ...

the strike was not proportional... it could never be...
Israel's army is striking from outside the Gaza strip...
although it gave warnings to the civilians not to host rocket launchers near their homes..
it's striking confirmed launch sites...(which are within civilian territories...)
I'm sure people in Gaza want peace and prosperity ...
but...
they have democratically elected a right wing militant-muslim organization called HAMAS...
which refuses to talk to Israel... (only through the Egyptians...or with rockets...)

long story short...
it was a slow train coming...
the situation sucks!.

but it is what it is... WAR.

I think Israel will drag us into the next world war and with a little luck the "holy land" will get blown off the map, left uninhabitable, and everybody will have to disperse and STFU.

Then they'll discover there's plenty of other places on the globe where they can practice their religion and beliefs in peace, fucking morons.

Every isreali I've met that now lives in the state are horrified at the way their government Is handling this situation and basically fled the country fearing for their lives. This type of behavior only brings more violence and gives birth to more terrioists. Are they planning to kill them all? That's the only way violence could bring peace of the situation. Good luck and best wishes to all living in the areas effected by this.

beats me wrote:I think Israel will drag us into the next world war ....

INSHA'ALLA...

food for thought...

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1050421.html

ha'aretz is THE left wing newspaper here...