Can someone from Ableton please answer this post.

[CarlSeleborg]

Jarvisimon,

Have you read the many posts from people who have paid for their upgrades
and found them unuseable so are reverting to 7? Sort of defeats the object of
upgrading altogether so I feel more than sorry for them especially if they're
going to have to wait for ages before it's any good.

Yes, we read all those posts. What can I say? We do offer a demo of Live 8,
completely free of charge. We even offer free 14-day licenses so that interested
users can save their work and test drive Live 8 on real projects. It is possible
to try out the entire software without spending a single cent.

Cheers,

Carl

[ewistrand]

So why not complile a weekly update of fixes to download so that the work you are doing can be immediately enjoyed by paid Live 8 users, much like the regular updates you released during the beta testing.

Maybe because you don't have as big of a user base involved in the testing, so it's going to take longer to find if a fix somewhere breaks compatibility somewhere else? Remember that the fixes were coming quickly during the public beta phase, where you had a lot more people giving input.

Something like this would give me sufficient reassurance that an upgrade would be worth it despite knowing that it is likely that I will run into further problems with the official release....or at least until all known bugs were cured.

The chance of all known bugs being cured on all systems with any piece of software? About one in a million, if that good.

I post in other music software forums and see a lot of peoples concerns being totally ignored. As I said before, the idea of my directly addressing Ableton was born out of seeing this and it's refreshing to have some proper interaction for a change. So this one little extra step would really round things off.

Most music software forums specifically state for the user to contact tech support if they're having issues. Usually, forums aren't meant as the primary vehicle for tech support for the users. Why are they there, then? Because other users might have had the same issue and know of a fix; thus taking some of the backlog off support.

ew

[jonny72]

Jarvisimon,

Ableton has a rather modest-sized development team doing all the work
on the software itself. There really is nothing else for us to do
than "get around to it when we can", and that's exactly what we're
doing - all of us are fixing bugs right now.

If the entire Ableton development team is working 100% on bug fixing at present, doesn't that suggest Live 8 was released early?

[Jarvisimon]

Yes, we read all those posts. What can I say?

How about something like "Thanks to everyone who beta tested the software, however, we realise that there is still some way to go before live is fully stable, therefore we will be releasing updates once a week which will comprise of all fixes we have worked on during that week, so please be sure to post details of any issues you seem to be encountering to bugfixes@ableton.com", or words to that effect.

Of course, this wouldn't have been an issue had you carried on beta testing for a short while longer. The amount of people who have found 8 to be unuseable and have reverted back to 7, detract from the speediness that these bugs will be uncovered.

I realise there are financial issues involved in regards to long beta testing periods but this could be counteracted by offering free upgrades to people who bought the previous version during the beta testing time.

Be assured though, you have created a monster and despite these set-backs you are proving yourselves to be worthy of all praise sent your way.

So, do you have plans for a Sampler upgrade soon?

[leinad]

Of course, this wouldn't have been an issue had you carried on beta testing for a short while longer. The amount of people who have found 8 to be unuseable and have reverted back to 7, detract from the speediness that these bugs will be uncovered.

Come on, the time of the release was totally ok. Not that the release is now fully stable, but if they keep pushing out the builds in a weekly manner, then everything should be fine in a couple of months.

[Jarvisimon]

Maybe because you don't have as big of a user base involved in the testing, so it's going to take longer to find if a fix somewhere breaks compatibility somewhere else? Remember that the fixes were coming quickly during the public beta phase, where you had a lot more people giving input.

Yes, I agree with you, however, with people reverting to Live 7 when they have paid for Live 8 also means that any problems in the official Live 8 release will take longer to find due to the smaller user base. A longer beta testing period would have negated many of these problemed posts.

The chance of all known bugs being cured on all systems with any piece of software? About one in a million, if that good.

Again I agree with you here, though knowing a release still contains a lot of bugs should mean that some kind of official reassurance be offered without question. Not knowing when the update that fixes your problems is due, is no assurance whatsoever.

Most music software forums specifically state for the user to contact tech support if they're having issues. Usually, forums aren't meant as the primary vehicle for tech support for the users. Why are they there, then? Because other users might have had the same issue and know of a fix; thus taking some of the backlog off support.

Ableton have taken a different tack by having a bugfix forum, this suggests that bug fixing is an ongoing concern. However, upon a new release such as Live 8, you can understand why there's more bugs reported than 6 months into its release. It's still of no help to anyone if they can't get the software to work as it should and there's no update in sight.

[Jarvisimon]

Come on, the time of the release was totally ok. Not that the release is now fully stable, but if they keep pushing out the builds in a weekly manner, then everything should be fine in a couple of months.

This is why I am asking for the Abes team to announce something in regards to how regularly they will be posting updates. I'm sure it's a lot of hard work but it's to the benefit of everyone. We get reassurances, they get more people buying it upon release because of this reassurance.

[ewistrand]

By making reassurances like that, they'd probably be making a promise that they can't keep- a majority of the bugs that seem to be showing up aren't going to be fixed in a week or two, and you can't set a timetable as to fixes.

I'd rather see them proceeding the way they are; at least they're upfront about the issues.

ew

[ErnstEiswürfel]

Jarvisimon,

Have you read the many posts from people who have paid for their upgrades
and found them unuseable so are reverting to 7? Sort of defeats the object of
upgrading altogether so I feel more than sorry for them especially if they're
going to have to wait for ages before it's any good.

Yes, we read all those posts. What can I say? We do offer a demo of Live 8,
completely free of charge. We even offer free 14-day licenses so that interested
users can save their work and test drive Live 8 on real projects. It is possible
to try out the entire software without spending a single cent.

Cheers,

Carl

right.
@ Jarvisimon: i think despite useless official statements and announcements, ableton has proven to deliver bugfixes and updates sooner than anyone else (keeping in mind that tons of problems are not to be blamed on the host software).
i sugguest - if you are not happy with the offered product and service, just choose a different software that makes you more happy! there are enough alternatives

[Jarvisimon]

By making reassurances like that, they'd probably be making a promise that they can't keep- a majority of the bugs that seem to be showing up aren't going to be fixed in a week or two, and you can't set a timetable as to fixes.

I don't see why you can't give out reassurances.

And, you can say that you will release a compilation of fixes that you have been working on for the past week. Plus, I doubt there are any bugs that would take as long to solve as you imagine. It would all depend on the backlog and the amount of people working on the problems. The more bugs you fix, the less there is left to fix.

Also, what is wrong with having a timetable? It doesn't have to be rigid, more a guideline.

I'm not saying that if you report a bug on a monday it will definitely be fixed, by the weekend, however, it's likely this would be the case for a lot of issues. If a particular bug is taking time to rectify, wouldn't it be great were we given a few words as to how the work is progressing. It's like shining a light into a dark room.

[Jarvisimon]

Jarvisimon: i think despite useless official statements and announcements, ableton has proven to deliver bugfixes and updates sooner than anyone else (keeping in mind that tons of problems are not to be blamed on the host software).
i sugguest - if you are not happy with the offered product and service, just choose a different software that makes you more happy! there are enough alternatives

Ernst, I don't think you have really understood my point of view quite clearly enough.

There's no way i'm changing platform again, i've gone through enough of them to be happy with the Ableton method of working.

Why do you call an official announcement of weekly bugfixes "useless"? when this is far from the case.

I think you should keep in mind that there are many bugs reported in this official release of Live 8 that are 100% to do with its code, bugs which have rendered the program unuseable to a lot of users who because of this have reverted back to Live 7.

So yes, some kind of assurance would go a long way to appeasing people in this forum that a fix is on the way soon. I'm not going to buy into 8 until either some reassurance is given, or until about 3 months time when most of the bugs are ironed out.

I'm not arguing that the Ableton team are working hard at fixing bugs, i've already had an answer from them on this thread saying this is the case, however it got a response from a user who correctly stated that, if they still have a team working on bugs, why was it taken off the beta so early?

The fact that there is no scheduled release date for the next update is off-putting to say the least. There are people who have paid for this release who can't even get it running. Why should they have to wait an unspecified amount of time before it's useable?

Why is the idea of weekly updates such a bad idea in your eyes?

What do you have against reassuring the buying public that this software will be updated regularly until it's stable?

I am very impressed with the tools on offer but i'm no mug and won't be buying the upgrade until I am informed more about its downfalls and what is happening to rectify the problems.

You go ahead if you like but in my eyes you're paying for something that's not entirely ready for release.

[ErnstEiswürfel]

Jarvisimon: i think despite useless official statements and announcements, ableton has proven to deliver bugfixes and updates sooner than anyone else (keeping in mind that tons of problems are not to be blamed on the host software).
i sugguest - if you are not happy with the offered product and service, just choose a different software that makes you more happy! there are enough alternatives

Ernst, I don't think you have really understood my point of view quite clearly enough.

There's no way i'm changing platform again, i've gone through enough of them to be happy with the Ableton method of working.

Why do you call an official announcement of weekly bugfixes "useless"? when this is far from the case.

I think you should keep in mind that there are many bugs reported in this official release of Live 8 that are 100% to do with its code, bugs which have rendered the program unuseable to a lot of users who because of this have reverted back to Live 7.

So yes, some kind of assurance would go a long way to appeasing people in this forum that a fix is on the way soon. I'm not going to buy into 8 until either some reassurance is given, or until about 3 months time when most of the bugs are ironed out.

I'm not arguing that the Ableton team are working hard at fixing bugs, i've already had an answer from them on this thread saying this is the case, however it got a response from a user who correctly stated that, if they still have a team working on bugs, why was it taken off the beta so early?

The fact that there is no scheduled release date for the next update is off-putting to say the least. There are people who have paid for this release who can't even get it running. Why should they have to wait an unspecified amount of time before it's useable?

Why is the idea of weekly updates such a bad idea in your eyes?

What do you have against reassuring the buying public that this software will be updated regularly until it's stable?

I am very impressed with the tools on offer but i'm no mug and won't be buying the upgrade until I am informed more about its downfalls and what is happening to rectify the problems.

You go ahead if you like but in my eyes you're paying for something that's not entirely ready for release.

obviously there are reasons for keeping a release date. i assume they were committed to release 8 for the musikmesse. and i assume it must be a financial disaster not to make it to a deadline like that. and to be honest i prefer to have a few bugs in 8.0.0 to the scenario of ableton going bankrupt or somthing like that.
i also think it's the same situation for any company -- there's a deadline that HAS to be made, because of high investments into development. then of course they run out of time, everyone's stressed, and then it's all ready JUST in time - with a few bugs.
but just wait it out then!
myself, i am keeping 7.0.15, but i'm already more than happy to get used to 8 and try the new stuff! actually without any problem so far..

but everyone's different in that point! if you prefer to not install a brandnew software because you dont wanna deal with its teething troubles at all (which is normal and understandable for ANY software) - just wait for a few months and get it then..! what difference would it make for you? just act like ableton would only release it in october or so, and then buy it..! and use 7.0.15 until then..!

[ewistrand]

By making reassurances like that, they'd probably be making a promise that they can't keep- a majority of the bugs that seem to be showing up aren't going to be fixed in a week or two, and you can't set a timetable as to fixes.

I don't see why you can't give out reassurances.

Why? Because you might be promising something that just can't be done by when you say it's going to be.

And, you can say that you will release a compilation of fixes that you have been working on for the past week. Plus, I doubt there are any bugs that would take as long to solve as you imagine. It would all depend on the backlog and the amount of people working on the problems. The more bugs you fix, the less there is left to fix.

Ah- if that were only the case.

I do lots of testing for various developers. I can't count the number of times where fixing one thing leads to another, more serious bug that was introduced by the fix...

Also, what is wrong with having a timetable? It doesn't have to be rigid, more a guideline.

Because it's impossible to predict how long something's going to take to be fixed.

I'm not saying that if you report a bug on a monday it will definitely be fixed, by the weekend, however, it's likely this would be the case for a lot of issues. If a particular bug is taking time to rectify, wouldn't it be great were we given a few words as to how the work is progressing. It's like shining a light into a dark room.

Read my above answers.

ew

[Jarvisimon]

obviously there are reasons for keeping a release date. i assume they were committed to release 8 for the musikmesse. and i assume it must be a financial disaster not to make it to a deadline like that. and to be honest i prefer to have a few bugs in 8.0.0 to the scenario of ableton going bankrupt or somthing like that.

I've actually answered both these points already to a degree. Yes, I think money played a big factor in releasing Live 8 early. It's at the root of all evil so they say!

And no doubt, if the Abletons have booked themselves into musikmesse, they would want to be sure they have something official to display there. A beta isn't going to get them the attention they want.

if you prefer to not install a brandnew software because you dont wanna deal with its teething troubles at all (which is normal and understandable for ANY software) - just wait for a few months and get it then..! what difference would it make for you? just act like ableton would only release it in october or so, and then buy it..! and use 7.0.15 until then..!

My answer to this (you should read some of my previous posts in this thread) was that I don't mind if the software has bugs in it, however, what I do mind, is not knowing what operations are in place for ironing these bugs out. Hence my call for an official statement in regards to their actions.

It's not a difficult thing to do and would have the effect of pacifying people like me that my problems may be solved reasonably quickly.

Without some reassurance i'm left in the dark, a feeling i'd rather not put myself through, especially when a few choice words could avoid it altogether.

To be honest, I can't justify buying 8 suite yet anyway, at least not until I have sold my surplus plug-ins but it won't take a few months to do that. If I pull my finger out, I can have everything sold within a fortnight or so and therefore carry on with projects that I started during the beta. Plus there's the stuff I was doing in 7 which i'd like to fire up in 8, though having read the posts in here it appears that they'll likely crash my system.

So please Ableton, how about a statement to inform us of your commitment to regular updates? As and when you feel like it is no good to me or to anyone who can't use the software as it should work.

[Jarvisimon]

Why? Because you might be promising something that just can't be done by when you say it's going to be.

I've not made a call for promises, this is about reassurance that there will be a regular (weekly) update of fixes that have made during that week.

Ah- if that were only the case.

It is the case.

I do lots of testing for various developers. I can't count the number of times where fixing one thing leads to another, more serious bug that was introduced by the fix...

If this scenario happens, then you be honest and print a few words saying that it's a work in progress and perhaps give a brief explanation of details. (Am i repeating myself here?) However, if it's really going to be that long, then surely, even you would have to agree that beta testing ended too early and it should never have been released when it was. Pre-booked stall at the Musikmesse or not!

Read my above answers.

I have done. Read my solutions.