Ableton Forum

i would suggest downloading pd (and/or max 5 demo) and toying with it - getting used to that way of sound creation. . this might be a good way to prepare for Max4Live, and nobody really knows what the price model / liscensing is going to be like for it yet.

OK. Max demo is downloading, soon I'll immerse myself in it. Still hard to pick between Max, PD and Reaktor. How much of what I learn in Max will translate to the other two apps and vice versa?

Start with PD, it's free and if it keeps you interested, go for max (pd is similar to max, do a search on Miller Puckette).

Personally I prefer reaktor cuz of the whole bunch of available patches and seems to be more efficient for similar tasks but don't take my word for it. I didn't do a side by side comparison and there's many factors for optimization depending on who builds the patch. Some math/logic background will help you to.

I got interested in Max/pd a while back but it's a lot of work. Reaktor seems easier for me.

I've started to have a go at Max and go through some tutorials to learn the basics. Can't say I've used it long enough to make any judgments but some things (lego analogies) are making sense.

I am tempted to just go for Reaktor because it seem to be better suited to my needs, plus my background is definitely in maths. But at the same time I don't want to limit myself... It seems like Max is the Grandaddy which makes anything possible whereas Reaktor has limits. I don't like limits, but I also don't like code.

Tough call.

The math/logic was meant has a general comment for all 3 softwares.

You can't really save your patches in the max demo (I think?) so you won't really get to work it out. That's why I mentioned pd. There's enough stuff in it to get you going pretty good.

What's cool about max is that it seems to be made to interface with pretty much anything and I think in a way, that's why it's very popular. People build custom music controllers and use max/msp to do whatever they want.

In the end, you gotta trust your needs and ask yourself if you really need to learn all that stuff. Reaktor seems a good option to build custom things and if you are tempted, you can dig in the core cells and build pretty much anything you fancy. It supports OSC and that's plus.

One last point, since max4live is coming, learning some of it won't be a waste of time after all! I bet you we are gonna see some clever patches made by some Ableton maniacs somewhere and those basics you learned will help you modify existing patches to your likings.

Anyway, though call I admit!

Pat

Don't forget to consider Plogue Bidule. Depending on your wishes, it could be a good answer.
It's very easy to crate synths an audio stuff in it. It supports OSC in case you need, and it can be loaded in live as a Vst. And it is unexpensive.
I am also a big fan of audiomulch, but mainly for audio only stuff. If you are looking to crazy granular stuff and effect routing, or spatialization, it's the way to go.

Max for Live is coming out later this year and integration with Live will be super tight, in fact it's revolutionary.
So that should be number 1 on your list.

Reaktor does some nice sounds but to use and program it's a mess.
IMVHO

After thinking more about what I want to do, it's unlikely that I'll ever get the urge to build my own synths from scratch or anything like that. So in on sense Reaktor seems to be the better option. But I can see myself wanting to explore the realm of audio/visual interactivity using sensors, triggers, lights etc. In that sense Max will be more useful right... Super tough call.

@paradiddle: Yes, you can save your patches using the demo version of Max.

Generally, having used Max, pd and Ableton (no programming in Reaktor though), I would always go for Max rather than Reaktor. The reason is exactly as mentioned, with M4L coming up and sufficient patching skills, it will be a breeze to come up with unique modulation source which takes in any kind of input from Live to create some semi random movements, as an example. or create some unique effects, changing parameters and patchings as you go...eventually, one will end up with unique sounds.

Of course, there are unlimited choices in terms of free (and not so free) plugins out there, but either, you don't know of them, or you will have to understand how to use them, and last but not least, it might be close to what you want, but not exactly, and sometimes, there is no way how you could tweak the internal sound generation the way you want it.

leaving c coding out, Max is already the most flexible environment (one can do everything on signals and controls), so one will never be stuck. The downside is that recreating usable modules is quite a lot of work. But then again, as pointed out before, the Max distribution contains a lot of helpful patches, and the Max community is one of the most responsive and helpful on the net.

Overall, I like how Max helps to deepen the overall understanding of signal processing and the respective sounds.

Having said that, I spent a lot of time patching instead of making music, so there is a flipside. Depends on how often you happen to have sound ideas that you can't really nail down using the tools at hand.

Don't do it unless you really need to!

You will spend loads of time programing so less time for making music...

Max can be a huge time sink. I would say, do it if and only if you find it fun. Except for certain specific sorts of music, there is almost nothing you would really need this kind of modular environment for (compared to e.g. semi-modular synths/effects like zebra/zebrify that are much easier to program), but it can be quite entertaining to try to build your own stuff (I've been playing around with different ways of implementing a vocoder, for example).

Vocoder seems to be complicated to do. Way above my head I think I read somewhere it was done with bandpass filters in cascades or so. I guess that's probably one way of doing it. When Max4live comes out, it will get it anyway even if I don't plan on really learning it (gotta update to live 8 first:) Probably a huge time eater.

paradiddle wrote:Vocoder seems to be complicated to do. Way above my head I think I read somewhere it was done with bandpass filters in cascades or so. I guess that's probably one way of doing it. When Max4live comes out, it will get it anyway even if I don't plan on really learning it (gotta update to live 8 first:) Probably a huge time eater.

Well, I didn't say I was doing a good job of it, just that I was enjoying it . This kind of thing isn't probably as complicated as you might think though; I've been working on a bandpass-based vocoder but actually there is a simple phase vocoder in MSP tutorial 26, and there is a more elaborate tutorial on cycling 74's site.

just found out about PWGL, looks interesting.
yet to check it out but it's free, and has a score editor by the looks of it. which is cool.