Ableton Forum

kent_sandvik wrote: Same if the producer has fun with BPM changes along the track. -Kent

True, some tracks I have warped seem to speed up ever so slighltly at the exciting points. Im sure this is intentional. These tracks can cause a few problems because teh BPM will never be exactly 130 bpm for eg. More like 130.532

Patch wrote:The method described here is just plain ol' time stretching. Great for anything that's been produced with studio equipment (samplers, drum machines, etc, etc...) but WILL NOT work if you're trying to warp music played by a live band. I've been warping tracks by The Beatles and have to place a warp marker on pretty much every 1/4 bar in order to mix the Beatles tracks .

As I said in my original post:

The following applies to any Dance material. House, Techno, DNB, Hip Hop etc. Im not talking about Beatles tracks or music recorded with live musicians. Those type of genres take a little longer...unless the track in question had Tony Thomson (X Chic) on drums.

However I have warped some Beatles tracks after reading your post and have not needed to set warp markers every 1/4 bar. I have it on good authority that Ringo wasnt drunk while recording his drums.

I was warping their later stuff. SGT Pepper is a good one to try. Their earlier stuff will have vast ranging tempo changes.

buchnaner wrote:so is this technique in reference to dj-ing w/ live? this whole process still confuses me ...

Yes. Its about warping full length songs. Ableton can handle 4-8-16 bar loops without requiring intervention from the user most of the time. But its a different matter when it comes to tracks that are 4, 5, ,6 ,7, 8 minutes long.

experimedia wrote:Chris's method is great and works very well. I would simply like to add the method I use for dj'ing with live which for me works very well. My outlook on it is if your going to dj digitally why not do something an average vinyl dj couldn't do.


Rather than importing and warping an entire track I prefer to cut the tracks into phrases before bringing them into Ableton.

To do this I use Sound Forge myself which I use to explain this example....of course any solid wave editor will work.


1. I usually start by finding the first downbeat...bypassing all the intro crap for now. I drop a marker on the first beat. Then I drop another marker so that my region covers usually 4 measures which is often times the length of a phrase. Now sometimes its hard to tell if you selected the perfect timing down to the millisecond and chances are you wont get it right on.

2. What I do to make sure I am at least close before I start cutting is I use the move selection equal distance keyboard shortcut (on PC : 'Shift+>' to go forward : 'Shift+<' to go back).

3. I do this command and drop a marker at the end of every selection aka every 4 measures. When I am most of the way through the track dropping markers every 4 I find a region that seems pretty basic and play it to make sure the timing is perfect (ie: starts at the right position in the beat and ends in the right position on the beat). If its not I just undo (ctrl+z) until I am back to the first region on the first beat zoom in (scroll up) to the end of the region (end of 4 measures) until it is zoomed close enough to see each point and guesstimate slight adjustments.

4. Then I repeat step 2 and 3 again and make sure the timeing stays as precise as possible even towards the end of the track. This sounds like it may be tedious and sometimes it can be with a difficult track but shortly after starting to use this method I was usually able to have my timing perfect on the 1st or second attempt.

5. I then go back to the beginning of the track if there is any intro stuff/build up etc. And go backwards from the initial region dropping markers. If I want I can cut off parts of the intro or outro, or all of them together...or add silence so that everything comes out even.

6. Last I save several versions of the track to experiment with. First I will save a full version. Then one with any intro and outro cut off. Then I will start cutting it down into measures. I will copy and paste to new ('Ctrl+E') different segments...say 16 regions (16 selections of 4 measures). Then down to 8 regions. Sometimes down to 4 selections, or 2, or 1.

7. I will usually always save a couple files consisting of only 4 measures...at least one from towards the beginning and one from towards then end. Right there that pretty much gives me my bpm when loaded into Ableton...and when I load the longer peices (4 measures x 16) I will know the exact bpm to set it on and be confident that the timing will be perfect.

8. Then if I want I can cut them down into even smaller pieces in Ableton easily...however it may suite me.

9. To me the advantage of this is actually being able to cut up the tracks on the fly while you are playing them. So its like doing remix/edits live on the fly while also mixing/battling multiple tracks. Sometimes I will even have parts of the same song on two separate tracks. Like a sample loop from the track or effect that I can throw in whenever I like. Using this method is a great way to work if you like the change tracks constantly. I like to use 30 or more tracks in a 70 minute set. Of course it depends what kind of tunes you are working with and personal preference. I myself have been doing eclectic mixes of dark Electro, IDM, and Techno using this method.

10. Then of course you would take it further by adding fx/eq/filters to your channels, or sends...whichever you prefer.


This way if a vinyl snob (guilty of that myself in the past..but ableton changed that) tries to say...why don't you just use records...tell them...try to do this with records (which actually I am sure an exceptional vinyl dj could do with the right equipment....ie: high end mixer, 3-4 turntables, multiple copies of the same record, fx and repeaters.


I dunno I hope this gives some people some ideas...and most of all I hope I explained it in a clear enough manner. This method works wonders for me and I just thought I would share. After a long time of djing I got really bored with just mixing two or three records in and out of each other. I enjoy the ability to be able to disassemble the tracks phrases and rearrangeing, chopping, cutting, and mixing them all together with other tracks as well as throwing in my own loops. Ableton together with a midi controller (novation x-station for me) for me gives me unlimited possibilities when it comes to djing and beyond.


Again I am not trying to debunk Chris Cowie's method, just trying to add some other ideas...that may work for other people.

Rather than importing and warping an entire track I prefer to cut the tracks into phrases before bringing them into Ableton.

Why do that because once you have the track warped and in time with the metronome you can cut, copy, paste and re-arrange the whole track in ableton as easily as moving midi parts around (I do this with nearly every track I warp). You could render the new sections individually, or render the whole track (as if it were remixed). No disrespect but your method would take far longer.

I would simply like to add the method I use for dj'ing with live which for me works very well. My outlook on it is if your going to dj digitally why not do something an average vinyl dj couldn't do.

Thats exactly what I do, I just do it different from you (as explained above). But I also add new parts to the tracks I warp. New drums, new synth lines, fx noises etc basically remixing them all (hopefully with taste).

Sure I could do this when I DJ live, and with some tracks I do, but I simply cannot have 600 clips to wade through during a set. I need to keep it as simple as possible. Im paid to entertain the crowd, so im careful not be over indulgent. Sure I could go mad with clips. Great fun for me, but for the crowd maybe not?

Ive seen dome DJ's go mad with loops, after 30 minutes it becomes tedious.

For an artist performing his own material the small loops is definitely the way to go.

I do this command and drop a marker at the end of every selection aka every 4 measures. When I am most of the way through the track dropping markers every 4 I find a region that seems pretty basic and play it to make sure the timing is perfect

But why?. This is exactly what takes a long time. I can move one or two markers and whole track is perfectly in time. If I then wanted to cut the track up in to sections I could CTRL E and render those sections as loops individually.

I will usually always save a couple files consisting of only 4 measures...at least one from towards the beginning and one from towards then end.

I do the same. This is good advice for extending the outros when mixing in another track

This way if a vinyl snob (guilty of that myself in the past..but ableton changed that) tries to say...why don't you just use records...tell them...try to do this with records (which actually I am sure an exceptional vinyl dj could do with the right equipment....ie: high end mixer, 3-4 turntables, multiple copies of the same record, fx and repeaters.

I dont give those snobs a second thought thesedays, I have seen many a poe face when they hear a version of track they will never have. No matter how much decks and FX they have they simply cannot add new synth lines, drums, vocals that are in the right key etc etc.

Cheers

mforness wrote:1. He mentions to open up the track in arrange view and not in session/clip view. Why?

2. I have been using the tap method for tapping out the tempo for a song; then hitting the warp button for the track; and then saving the clip/track to get it's BPM.

I tried Chris's method of using trial and error. I must be missing something. He says to load the track in arrange view; set the global tempo to 135 (or whatever); then hit the warp button on the track. I don't understand this b/c this makes the track tempo the same as the global tempo; so then the track is set at and sounds right at this tempo though this is not the real tempo of the track. So when I change the track's tempo to something other than 135 it sounds off. What am I missing here?

Thanks for any suggestions...

I open the track in the arrange page because its easier to zoom around and check that everythings in time with the metronome. This is also where I edit the tracks. (Remixing, adding loops, fx etc).

He says to load the track in arrange view; set the global tempo to 135 (or whatever); then hit the warp button on the track

Sorry this is an error.....I import the track, play it with the metronome and adjust the master tempo until its in time. Only then do I hit the warp marker. Obviously the BPM display below the warp button is now the same as the master tempo. However, once you start moving markers the BPM display below the warp button will change slightly.

I really just meant that I work with everything at around 135 once it is warped. You see, some tracks I edit/remix so when I render these tracks I have to choose a tempo to render it at ......(If I render it as a loop). 135 seems to be the area that suits me. If I dont edit a track at all I can simply hit the little save button (your asd file) and anytime I load that track up it will match my master tempo.

If I dont render it as a loop I then load up my new rendered edited version and beause I know the exact tempo I hit warp set the tempo below the warp button and hit the little save button.

Of Interest

Some of the tracks I render as loops dont sound very good when I listen back. Maybe abut 30%. So this is when I render the track as a non loop, import back in and do my thing.

I dunno....I get confused myself

The New Updated Version

I think I may have compicated matters with my original post. I admit that Im not the best at explaining these things. If I could film it I would, so for the moment my fumbling attempt at explaining with mere text will have to suffice.......

Some points first

1. You dont need to edit the start point of a track in your editor.You can easily do this with Ableton live. This was merely a suggestion and my point was that you can maximise your tracks providing you have the tools. I also mentioned that some older tracks may lack the punch of todays stuff so you might want to beef them up a little. I suppose you could warp first then maximise/master the track in your editor after warping. I havent tried this but Im sure it would be fine. Theres a little edit button im sure you have all noticed it that can launch your sound editor.


2. This wont work for Beatles, Led Zepplin, Hendrix, Elvis etc.


3. Many tracks I import are totally bang on from start to finish. Its simply a case of finding the right tempo using the master tempo, hit the warp button and your track is warped. I would say 40-50% of the tracks I import are bang on.........But on a few occassions when I have the exact tempo and hit the warp button some tracks can drift slightly....but this is rare and tends to happen with tracks that have a lot of upfront percussion. Obviously when this happens I have to move a marker or 2..

4. Just the other day I imported a track, it was bang on but every so often the hand clap was late (even with the warp button off). I only noticed this with the metronome, but when switched off I didnt notice it. I could have been obsessive and warped every so often so the clap was bang on, but I saw no need as the song sounded fine and everything else was bang on. I put this down to producer/engineer not noticing it...well I didnt either..

WARPING THE TRACK

I still recommend dragging the track in to the arrange page. Switch on the metronome and press play. Theres no magic solution here, you simply have to try and guess the tempo. I suppose after many years of writing dance music I usually have a pretty good idea of a tracks tempo so it take me no time at all to get it nailed down. I guess the less experienced ones may take a little longer, but keep trying and you will get better at it.

I dont use the tap tempo, I simply find the thing wildly innacurate, but if it works for you then so be it. But the bottom line is the song has to be in time with the metronome. If you use an external BPM counter dont bet on its accuracy, particularly the ones that come with DJ mixers....Well I have never found them to be accurate and for this you need to be spot on.

Warping From Right To left

Since my initial post I can get nearly every track in perfect sync with moving one marker near the end of the song providing it doesnt have variable tempo and very few dance records have this.

Theres a certain arrangement style with most forms of dance music:

For EG

Trance: 2 breakdowns
techno: sometimes no break downs, but a few drops in the kik/bass here and there
Breaks: 2 breakdowns

etc etc

OK I know Im generalising a bit, but after looking at many waveforms you get to know by instinct where the best place to move the marker is. Im sorry its difficult to explain.....I will do my best

OK play the song and actually count out the bars while KEEPING A CLOSE EYE ON THE WAVEFORM. The best place to stop counting is after the last break down, or the section where its the obvious beginning of the mix out point of the record.....There may be a reverse symbol, a small kik/bass drop, indicating "HEY DJ THIS IS WHERE YOU HAD BETTER START MIXING IN THAT OTHER RECORD"

OK (AS AN EXAPMLE) you have counted out the bars and you know that at the beginning of bar 147 is where the breakdown ended......At that point you would expect to see the warp marker 147 spot on with the first beat/kik/bar of 147........BUT you may notice that warp marker 147 is either a little behind or a little forward....HEY, it might even be 2 bars to the left or right

IMORTANT

While doing all this you must keep a close eye on the wave form....

OK, so now drag WITHOUT MAKING YELLOW the warp marker that should land on the first beat of the bar 147....or 153 etc remember 147 is just an example.

you should now have your track in perfect sync.


IMORTANT

While doing all this you must keep a close eye on the wave form and you will need to be zoomed in to the wave form. Obviously this means you have to listen and count along with the track from start to near the end. I dont have to do this, I can figure out where the marker should be. But for the less experienced the above is a good way to figure out this method.


Whe I first posted the warping thread I was probably dong this at around the beginning of bar 65, then 128, and now I am doing it at the last possible bar, and its working 99% of the time.


As mentioned i find it difficult to explain these things, so if anyone understands this and could write it in a more understandable manner than I have then feel free. No disrespect to newcomers, but I suppose I have forgotten what its like to be new to the game and take it for granted that everyone has some knowledge of beats and bars etc.

Hope this has been of help

Cheers
Chris


[/b]

Thanks Chris and everyone else for taking the time to submit your suggestions...very helpful

Have been doing similar stuff in Acid. Was wondering how this compared? Does the transition from tracks sound as smooth as a good vinyl mix? Better? Do the tracks need alot of eqing??? Thinking of getting Ableton and this is a feature that in=m really interested in.

Cheers

----
The New Updated Version

I think I may have compicated matters with my original post. I admit that Im not the best at explaining these things. If I could film it I would, so for the moment my fumbling attempt at explaining with mere text will have to suffice.......
-----


Firstly, cheers for the info, i'm quite new to live but since reading your post i've got soo into it now, your a good lad, pretty damn good producer/dj too!!

I have been using the following package to capture screens for my day job, it'll let you record your whole screen movements as a project, then go back over it, placing in comments along the way.

Here's the demo and info about it...

http://www.qarbon.com/presentation-software/vc/

download it from here...

http://www.qarbon.com/download/

It saves it as an avi but you can export it as a swf file (much smaller)

Let us know how you get on..

Cheers
Bruce

Boing! Anybody???

bruce wrote:----
The New Updated Version

I think I may have compicated matters with my original post. I admit that Im not the best at explaining these things. If I could film it I would, so for the moment my fumbling attempt at explaining with mere text will have to suffice.......
-----


Firstly, cheers for the info, i'm quite new to live but since reading your post i've got soo into it now, your a good lad, pretty damn good producer/dj too!!

I have been using the following package to capture screens for my day job, it'll let you record your whole screen movements as a project, then go back over it, placing in comments along the way.

Here's the demo and info about it...

http://www.qarbon.com/presentation-software/vc/

download it from here...

http://www.qarbon.com/download/

It saves it as an avi but you can export it as a swf file (much smaller)

Let us know how you get on..

Cheers
Bruce

Hi Bruce,

Thanks for your suggestion. I spent the whole day today trying to get this happening but couldnt do it (to much to explain). I really needed to record the audio as well. Without that its a bit pointess + the files were gigantic. And to be honest I dont really know anything about stuff like that.....

I may try again
Cheers

Hi Chris,

I've had a good look at the viewletcam software and it will let you record audio, so I had a bit of spare time on my hands and thought i'd have a go...hopefully it should do your post justice and give everyone a visual representation of what you are explaining...

Have a look, excuse the quality of the graphics and audio, i have set it to the lowest quality to keep the file size down...

How to warp marker a track

Hopefully it is a correct reflection of the text.

Cheers
Bruce

Bruce that video was spot on.. seeing it visually made much more sence!! i cant thank you enough (and of course Chris for the concept).. i think now we should start recording sum videos of us mixing.. so we can pick up some tips tricks ect..

that would be really cool!

OOPS

bruce wrote:Hi Chris,

I've had a good look at the viewletcam software and it will let you record audio, so I had a bit of spare time on my hands and thought i'd have a go...hopefully it should do your post justice and give everyone a visual representation of what you are explaining...

Have a look, excuse the quality of the graphics and audio, i have set it to the lowest quality to keep the file size down...

How to warp marker a track

Hopefully it is a correct reflection of the text.

Cheers
Bruce

mrlovatt wrote:Bruce that video was spot on.. seeing it visually made much more sence!! i cant thank you enough (and of course Chris for the concept).. i think now we should start recording sum videos of us mixing.. so we can pick up some tips tricks ect..

that would be really cool!

Give The Guy A Medal

Well done bruce, really excellent and I thank you very very much for taking the time to do this. I particularly liked the extra touches adding the acapella etc...............and not a yellow marker in sight. Oh, and the baloons were really cool and should be very helpful for the new guys. Its quite amazing when I think of it. My early warping attempts were an ocean of yellow markers and you have shown how it should be.

The method you used is exactly how I do it but I have a couple of things I would like to point out. I dont really know if they make any difference but I noticed you moved a few markers and you may not have needed to?. But the end result is still the same so dont take my points as criticism.


1. Before switching the warp button on, I move the Clip region/Start Postion Marker to the first beat. I noticed you hit the warp button first and then moved the clip region start positon. I dont really know if this makes any difference to how many markers need to be moved?

2. You moved your first marker at around 145(ish). Did you try moving it later? It doesnt have to be at the end of a breakdown ( I just mentioned that as an example). The marker can be moved at the very last beat of the song. This is what I always try, and if all goes well I dont need to move any other markers.



Anyway, that is a sterling job you did there and again I thank you for the time and effort you put in to this. (and so should Ableton imo)

Maybe the Abletons could use your video as a guide, but you would need to get permission from the label to use the track. Failing that I'm sur emany people on the board would be more than happy to supply a track and that includes me of course.


Cheers + thanks again.
Chris