Ableton Forum

YEP, BIG THUMBS UP!

This is great - cheers

slicedbread wrote:i'm not really a theory expert either. i assembled these from some charts i had... there could very well be errors. from what i understand every major key has a complement minor key, for example D major = B Minor. After mapping a major key's chords I didnt change the order of the chords for the relative minor.. just copied it over and i think that's still the right order to refer to them. Minor key progressions should usually start on the VI chord (the minor chord of the key), major key progressions usually start on the I chord... also the chords based on a black note are going to be an octave higher than the white notes. Why? because when i was fooling around it just sounded better to me to have the black key chords an octave higher to mix it up. no good reason really... that might be driven by what vst you're driving. As far as D, Em, Gbm, G, A, Bm, C, F goes... i'm pretty sure that's the Bm key. As far as the perceived pitch... i started mapping chords going up at A, B, C, D, E, F, G... then the black keys. again no good reason.... maybe there's a clever way to force one octave always on a midi channel.

It seems a little screwy for some reason, the chords for Bm are Bm, C#m, Dmaj, Em, F#m (although this is the same as Gbm, just wouldnt be called that in this key), Gmaj, Amaj.

No F in the key of D you see, it's F#.

Key of D: D E F# G A B C# D

Purely from a theoeretical point of view.

hmmm.... i know that the direction you're going makes a difference in what you call a note but you're citing completely different chords. i'll double check when i get home but i'm 95% sure that the chord charts i have for the key of Dmaj/Bmin say that FMaj is the VIII (optional) chord.

maybe this is why it's theory and not science?

UKRuss wrote:

slicedbread wrote:i'm not really a theory expert either. i assembled these from some charts i had... there could very well be errors. from what i understand every major key has a complement minor key, for example D major = B Minor. After mapping a major key's chords I didnt change the order of the chords for the relative minor.. just copied it over and i think that's still the right order to refer to them. Minor key progressions should usually start on the VI chord (the minor chord of the key), major key progressions usually start on the I chord... also the chords based on a black note are going to be an octave higher than the white notes. Why? because when i was fooling around it just sounded better to me to have the black key chords an octave higher to mix it up. no good reason really... that might be driven by what vst you're driving. As far as D, Em, Gbm, G, A, Bm, C, F goes... i'm pretty sure that's the Bm key. As far as the perceived pitch... i started mapping chords going up at A, B, C, D, E, F, G... then the black keys. again no good reason.... maybe there's a clever way to force one octave always on a midi channel.

It seems a little screwy for some reason, the chords for Bm are Bm, C#m, Dmaj, Em, F#m (although this is the same as Gbm, just wouldnt be called that in this key), Gmaj, Amaj.

No F in the key of D you see, it's F#.

Key of D: D E F# G A B C# D

Purely from a theoeretical point of view.

Yep.

circle of fifths upwards, pure fifth is 7 semitones, you get the major keys with the roots:

F C G D A E B F# C#

C doesnt have any flats or sharps

G has one sharp, the F#

D has two sharps, the F# and the C#

A has threee sharps, the F#, the C# and the G#

you see the accidentals follow the circle of fifths as well.

etc.

From C you can also go downwards and you will get the keys with the flats, with the roots:

C F Bb Eb Ab Db Gb Cb

F has one flat, the Bb

Bb has two flats, the Bb and the Eb

Eb has three flats, the Bb and the Eb and the Ab.

etc.

Minor is a little more complicated, cause you got an ascending and a descending minor.

But you can construct them all from the circle of fifths, and the circle of fifths you can construct yourself just starting from C up and downwards with 7 semitones or from a which has the same accidentals as C.

Good luck.

slicedbread wrote:i thought i'd share this ableton live session file...it lets you sound like 90% of pop music ever made.

here's a video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ieuDEx313nM

the key to using the circle of fifths is to bend the rules a little, otherwise you'll sound too much like a textbook.

link: http://www.wheelmaker.net/media/tonyschords.zip

let me know if you use it.

Nice idea, you took into account the open fifths and octaves ?

slicedbread wrote:hmmm.... i know that the direction you're going makes a difference in what you call a note but you're citing completely different chords. i'll double check when i get home but i'm 95% sure that the chord charts i have for the key of Dmaj/Bmin say that FMaj is the VIII (optional) chord.

maybe this is why it's theory and not science?

True, but the theory is the theory. Apols, cos i can see you've done a lot fo work here but IMO, all the keys i've checked so far are not correct.

C major you have down as C, Dmin, Emin, F, G, Am...all good so far then, Bb and Eb, which are not right. Should be Bm and then C again.

Of coure in music, anything goes really, and of course you can borrow chords from any other keys you like.

But in terms of keys, the chords are set from the circle of fifths and the order of sharps.

I quite like the modal stuff, but this could be acheived with a 'scale' plug preset and one scale midi mapped...

I feel like a shit pointing it out though.

UKRuss wrote:I feel like a shit pointing it out though.

No its good you do, you would be a prick if you didnt.

The confusion is that guitarplayers just look at a chord, not in the context of a key.

VI of the key Cmajor is ACE, or ACEG if you want to have the seventh.

ACE is also the I of the key Aminor.

There's many overlaps.

I think if I was to change the 'Tonyschords' set I would layout it out slightly differently to reflect the true tonic of the key and I would follow the circle of fifths, start on C major with the chords C, Dm, Em, F, G, Am, Bm and have the key of Amin under it layed out Am, Bm, C, Dm, Em, F, G.

Then next column, key of Gmaj with Emin under it.

You know?

And you're right, how cool it would be to extend it to include the 7ths. Not just dom but the full

Cmaj7, Dm7, Em7, Fmaj7, G7, Am7, Bm7b5

Cool.

Would be one mah-hassive set of chords!

UKRuss wrote:True, but the theory is the theory. Apols, cos i can see you've done a lot fo work here but IMO, all the keys i've checked so far are not correct.

C major you have down as C, Dmin, Emin, F, G, Am...all good so far then, Bb and Eb, which are not right. Should be Bm and then C again.

Of coure in music, anything goes really, and of course you can borrow chords from any other keys you like.

But in terms of keys, the chords are set from the circle of fifths and the order of sharps.

I quite like the modal stuff, but this could be acheived with a 'scale' plug preset and one scale midi mapped...

I feel like a shit pointing it out though.

don't feel like a shit... i enjoy learning. this was originally created as a reference and to help me improvise and perform, not teach academic music theory.

maybe i'm using the wrong term to describe what the charts i have are calling the last 2 chords in each key. i thought they were in the same key as the 1st 6, but now that i think about it, i think they're referred to as "Optional Chords"... borrowed from another key. in any case, they work. to my ears they sound like they belong.

from a theoretical/academic standpoint they don't belong in there, but i think you can get more good sounding variation from those 2 additional optional chords than 1 additional chord (i wouldn't even bother including a repeat of the root chord).

the modal stuff i included because for the way i work, it's very convenient to have actual notes already printed out. when i want to edit/tweak a melody i don't want to have to dial in a scale, print out the notes, then edit it... i just want to drag and drop.

a great side effect of this is that in your arrangement, since you're using clips of actual midi, all your work is automatically organized by color and name to show what your composition looks like... with names of actual chords, keys, scales at every change.

i'm sure the session could be improved.. ie... inversions, articulations, etc... feel free or maybe make suggestions and i'll try to incorporate them.

UKRuss wrote:I think if I was to change the 'Tonyschords' set I would layout it out slightly differently to reflect the true tonic of the key and I would follow the circle of fifths, start on C major with the chords C, Dm, Em, F, G, Am, Bm and have the key of Amin under it layed out Am, Bm, C, Dm, Em, F, G.

Then next column, key of Gmaj with Emin under it.

You know?

And you're right, how cool it would be to extend it to include the 7ths. Not just dom but the full

Cmaj7, Dm7, Em7, Fmaj7, G7, Am7, Bm7b5

Cool.

Would be one mah-hassive set of chords!

lol i already started to change my set. it already looks different than what it did 2 days ago. i found myself having to count the number of semi-tones when i want to have a scale play over a chord change. i'd say to myself "this new chord is how many steps away from the last chord?" then i'd transpose my lead accordingly. if i just organized the tracks differently i could just count tracks from the browser.

maybe someone wants to tackle the extended chords. i did this because i suck at piano and i kind of didn't want to make this set overly huge. you know keep it simple but i could see this thing evolving into one hell of a reference/composition/performance tool.

Suggestions for borrowed chords is a go, no problem, leave it as it is.

Sounding good to the ear is after all what music is all about.

slicedbread wrote:i'm sure the session could be improved.. ie... inversions, articulations, etc... feel free or maybe make suggestions and i'll try to incorporate them.

Yeh, the inversions included.

Then preparation and resolution of the seventh and diminished chords.

Progressions 4up, 3 down, 2up 2down, 3up and 4down as passing chords.

There's a lot of work to do.

derzai wrote:

slicedbread wrote:i'm sure the session could be improved.. ie... inversions, articulations, etc... feel free or maybe make suggestions and i'll try to incorporate them.

Yeh, the inversions included.

Then preparation and resolution of the seventh and diminished chords.

Progressions 4up, 3 down, 2up 2down, 3up and 4down as passing chords.

There's a lot of work to do.

yeah you just lost me

i guess there's a balance here in ease of use and information overload. i didn't include every mode in my mode encyclopedia because most of them are never used anywhere except rural areas of outer mongolia.

this thread rocks!.. in a progressive chord kinda way


don't take that too literally