Ableton Forum

prebentious wrote:I know we'd all like it to be included in the core program, but it can be easily done with max for live

how so? i'm assuming this would be achieved by building a sort of pass-through translator that records midi cc's then translates and passes the data to corresponding parameters of ableton devices further down the chain? if something like that could work, maybe its even possible for someone to build a vst that does the same thing?

scientist wrote:

prebentious wrote:I know we'd all like it to be included in the core program, but it can be easily done with max for live

how so? i'm assuming this would be achieved by building a sort of pass-through translator that records midi cc's then translates and passes the data to corresponding parameters of ableton devices further down the chain? if something like that could work, maybe its even possible for someone to build a vst that does the same thing?

http://www.maxforlive.com/library/device.php?id=57

delicioso wrote:

ReasonliveUSER wrote:can you use clip envelopes in the session view and if so wouldn't that be a solution?

Uh... the point of all this is about workflow. You can draw clip envelopes with a mouse to your heart's content. You can't record controller movements into a session view clip without cumbersome workarounds as mentioned above.

Ok, so its a given that for now, unless using some work around (shame it always has to be a work around but c'est la vie) using Max for Live we will have to wait for a ground up rebuild...

My question is, and again maybe a feature request...Once we drag our clip into the arrange view and mess around with automation...Is there a quick easy way to apply these automations to 'THe clip' so we can use it in Session view properly...In my experience, When copying the automated lane for a specific parameter, lets say, you have automation on a 'Cut-Off' a 'Resonance' and 'delay' - When copying the envelopes in arrange so you can use in the clip in session - Live does not know you've copied the automation from that lane, specific to that Paraemer, so to apply each lane of automation to the clip you then seem to have to sift through all the possible parameters again and paste individually so the clip itself has the parameter automations...PLEASE TELL ME I'M WRONG...

THEN - To make it worse, If the autmation is on a 'MACRO CONTROL' if you want the automation to behave in 'session view' as it did in 'Arrange View' you would have to turn the macro all the way to maximum in session view... This would be all well and good if you didn't want to make any tweaks to a tracks macros, but when moving down tracks through songs and improvising sections of your set, when you get to the specific part of you track which has lots of automation going on that perhaps you don't want to concentrate on, you would have to rememeber to turn all the macros up to maximum for them to work... The same applies to carefully mixed track volumes -

The minute you decide maybe session view would work better for you in a Live situation than arrangement view - BE VERY WARY because all your careful mixing will need to be done again inside each and every individual clip in session view becasue theres no way to easily copy and paste automation from arrange back into session - AFAIK - I really hope i'm wrong though...

tempus3r wrote:http://www.maxforlive.com/library/device.php?id=57

ahhh yeah. will give this a go. thanks!

sdmiddleton wrote:Live does not know you've copied the automation from that lane, specific to that Paraemer, so to apply each lane of automation to the clip you then seem to have to sift through all the possible parameters again and paste individually so the clip itself has the parameter automations...PLEASE TELL ME I'M WRONG...

YOU'RE WRONG! (but, actually you're right). its ridiculous...its easy to miss until you need it, because logic dictates that recording automation in clips would be central to how live functions 'live'.

tempus3r wrote:http://www.maxforlive.com/library/device.php?id=57

My oh my. That sounds promising. If it works on audio tracks as well and if it can do its thing seamlessly in the background without having to load a device or turn something on every time you want to record automation, then this might be what so many people have been waiting for. I'd imagine this for me would be the killer feature that would make me seriously consider getting m4l.

prebentious wrote:I know we'd all like it to be included in the core program, but it can be easily done with max for live

Not so easy as you might imagine --> http://forum.ableton.com/viewtopic.php?p=822641#p822641

IMO what we really need is an option to record into clip envelopes. Maybe this could be the default when recording a clip in session view if arrangement recording is off.

One can argue that you shouldn't have to pay whatever the cost of Max4Live to get proper Session Automation, or that a free run time version of Max4Live with this should be built into the next version of Live, if they can't fix it internally. Unless Max4Live is gonna drop for less than 100 bucks, which I seriously doubt !

scientist wrote:

tempus3r wrote:http://www.maxforlive.com/library/device.php?id=57

ahhh yeah. will give this a go. thanks!

update: tried it out. works great!

leedsquietman wrote:One can argue that you shouldn't have to pay whatever the cost of Max4Live to get proper Session Automation, or that a free run time version of Max4Live with this should be built into the next version of Live, if they can't fix it internally. Unless Max4Live is gonna drop for less than 100 bucks, which I seriously doubt !

agree 100%. imo, this is a fix for a glaring omission in live. the m4l workaround is simple enough that i have to wonder: if a single m4l patch can fix the problem (albeit with the need for a somewhat inelegant plug to be instantiated), how does it require a rewrite of the base code?

leedsquietman wrote:One can argue that you shouldn't have to pay whatever the cost of Max4Live to get proper Session Automation, or that a free run time version of Max4Live with this should be built into the next version of Live, if they can't fix it internally. Unless Max4Live is gonna drop for less than 100 bucks, which I seriously doubt !

Very good point. The cynical part of me wonders if Ableton put off improving their code and fixing essential features like recording automation because they could just let geeky users actually do the work with M4L (which it appears is exactly what's happening) while they can just sit back and profit from it. And if M4L is more than a few hundred bucks, I would have a harder time convincing myself to buy it. Other DAWs and sequencers like NI Maschine and Sonar are starting to implement session view style pattern sequencers into their own products to compete with Live. Maschine already has a working session view that can record automation. Many Reaper users have been asking for a matrix pattern sequencer and they may get it soon knowing their development cycle.

scientist wrote:the m4l workaround is simple enough that i have to wonder: if a single m4l patch can fix the problem (albeit with the need for a somewhat inelegant plug to be instantiated)

So how's the workflow in this m4l workaround, scientist? Does it require that you load this m4l device into the same midi track, or a new track on its own, or not load it at all? What did you find to be inelegant?

delicioso wrote:

scientist wrote:the m4l workaround is simple enough that i have to wonder: if a single m4l patch can fix the problem (albeit with the need for a somewhat inelegant plug to be instantiated)

So how's the workflow in this m4l workaround, scientist? Does it require that you load this m4l device into the same midi track, or a new track on its own, or not load it at all? What did you find to be inelegant?

without saying too much: it is a simple plug that resides on the same midi track...inelegant only inasmuch as it is a plug, and not under the hood as it would be if it were live native.

delicioso wrote:Very good point. The cynical part of me wonders if Ableton put off improving their code and fixing essential features like recording automation because they could just let geeky users actually do the work with M4L (which it appears is exactly what's happening) while they can just sit back and profit from it.

yes, that comes up a lot. dunno, they use the software too and if something is broken, it's broken. 'fixing' it in max4Live is a patch, not a fix. session view automation is a feature, not a fix, there's a difference. I dunno, I can't take it serious when I picture the R&D team sitting around a table prioritizing bugs and dismissing them by saying "Covert Operators will fix that with max4Live in a few years." that's irresponsible.

if you read the C74 announcements closely it's obvious that Ableton and C74 have been in bed together for a looooong time, they've just been quiet about it. they were two oddball geeks that years ago looked at each other, recognizing that they were both weird and didn't fit in with the cool kids so they decided long ago to make a baby together knowing it would be a phreak of nature and make a splash in the world, showing up the cool kids with Uber Nerd.

And if M4L is more than a few hundred bucks, I would have a harder time convincing myself to buy it.

go to the Cycling 74 site and see just what max/msp/jitter are. I have no doubt it will be around $500 and worth every cent. lots of people on this forum don't give C74's software the respect it deserves. max, msp and jitter are very very powerful pieces of software. $500 is a bargain since they're throwing in jitter.

Other DAWs and sequencers like NI Maschine and Sonar are starting to implement session view style pattern sequencers into their own products to compete with Live. Maschine already has a working session view that can record automation. Many Reaper users have been asking for a matrix pattern sequencer and they may get it soon knowing their development cycle.

again, I think you're missing part of the picture because you're unfamiliar with the power of max/msp/jitter.

IMO...
Ableton and Cycling 74 teaming up will result in something wholly different than a DAW in a few year's time. it's going to be a new flavor of an audio environment. I don't see Ableton as headed towards taking on Digidesign or Apple or Steinberg for the DAW market. they're making their own market by going off in their own new direction. I think that's a very wise move for us and for them. Live will not evolve into the best DAW out there, it will evolve into something nobody has seen before. just when the market is catching up with Live's unique session view Ableton radically changed course, BRILLIANT TIMING!!! AFAIK the only other move the competition can take would be to absorb Reaktor into their DAW to make this new kind of product that Live is going to become.

how does this benefit us? did we really give a shit about 64 bit summing? no, but they had to do it to keep up with Sonar. by doing their own thing Ableton and C74 can continue to blaze their own courses and decide their own destinies. let the other DAWs copy each other with half baked features that are kinda like what the other guy has. there are DAWs out there, if you want pure awesome DAW power look elsewhere, if you want to phreak out, use Ableton and C74's love child.

scientist wrote:the m4l workaround is simple enough that i have to wonder: if a single m4l patch can fix the problem (albeit with the need for a somewhat inelegant plug to be instantiated)

So how's the workflow in this m4l workaround, scientist? Does it require that you load this m4l device into the same midi track, or a new track on its own, or not load it at all? What did you find to be inelegant?

yes, I'm curious as to how this works.

sweet, looks like by the time I get max4Live there will already be lots of things to play with.

GIMME GIMME GIMME GIMME GIMME GIMME GIMME GIMME GIMME GIMME GIMME GIMME GIMME GIMME GIMME GIMME GIMME GIMME GIMME GIMME GIMME GIMME GIMME GIMME GIMME GIMME GIMME GIMME GIMME GIMME GIMME GIMME GIMME GIMME GIMME GIMME GIMME GIMME GIMME GIMME GIMME GIMME GIMME GIMME GIMME GIMME GIMME GIMME GIMME GIMME GIMME GIMME GIMME GIMME GIMME GIMME GIMME GIMME GIMME GIMME GIMME GIMME GIMME GIMME GIMME GIMME GIMME GIMME GIMME GIMME GIMME GIMME GIMME GIMME GIMME GIMME

Tone Deft wrote: go to the Cycling 74 site and see just what max/msp/jitter are. I have no doubt it will be around $500 and worth every cent. lots of people on this forum don't give C74's software the respect it deserves. max, msp and jitter are very very powerful pieces of software. $500 is a bargain since they're throwing in jitter.

+1 Exactly.

Tone Deft wrote:

And if M4L is more than a few hundred bucks, I would have a harder time convincing myself to buy it.

go to the Cycling 74 site and see just what max/msp/jitter are. I have no doubt it will be around $500 and worth every cent. lots of people on this forum don't give C74's software the respect it deserves. max, msp and jitter are very very powerful pieces of software. $500 is a bargain since they're throwing in jitter.

oh, i do realize how powerful max/msp/jitter can be and i do give it the respect it deserves. I'm probably not interested in getting M4L though because it's not my kind of thing. I said I might be interested if it was an affordable solution to this automation recording flaw in Live. I already have my session view automation recording and hardware sequencer needs met with Maschine so I don't think it would be worth it for me to invest in M4L just so I get to play with a patch that fixes something that should have been fixed within Live natively.

Wait.

Tone Deft wrote:

delicioso wrote:Very good point. The cynical part of me wonders if Ableton put off improving their code and fixing essential features like recording automation because they could just let geeky users actually do the work with M4L (which it appears is exactly what's happening) while they can just sit back and profit from it.

yes, that comes up a lot. dunno, they use the software too and if something is broken, it's broken. 'fixing' it in max4Live is a patch, not a fix. session view automation is a feature, not a fix, there's a difference. I dunno, I can't take it serious when I picture the R&D team sitting around a table prioritizing bugs and dismissing them by saying "Covert Operators will fix that with max4Live in a few years." that's irresponsible.

if you read the C74 announcements closely it's obvious that Ableton and C74 have been in bed together for a looooong time, they've just been quiet about it. they were two oddball geeks that years ago looked at each other, recognizing that they were both weird and didn't fit in with the cool kids so they decided long ago to make a baby together knowing it would be a phreak of nature and make a splash in the world, showing up the cool kids with Uber Nerd.

And if M4L is more than a few hundred bucks, I would have a harder time convincing myself to buy it.

go to the Cycling 74 site and see just what max/msp/jitter are. I have no doubt it will be around $500 and worth every cent. lots of people on this forum don't give C74's software the respect it deserves. max, msp and jitter are very very powerful pieces of software. $500 is a bargain since they're throwing in jitter.

Other DAWs and sequencers like NI Maschine and Sonar are starting to implement session view style pattern sequencers into their own products to compete with Live. Maschine already has a working session view that can record automation. Many Reaper users have been asking for a matrix pattern sequencer and they may get it soon knowing their development cycle.

again, I think you're missing part of the picture because you're unfamiliar with the power of max/msp/jitter.

IMO...
Ableton and Cycling 74 teaming up will result in something wholly different than a DAW in a few year's time. it's going to be a new flavor of an audio environment. I don't see Ableton as headed towards taking on Digidesign or Apple or Steinberg for the DAW market. they're making their own market by going off in their own new direction. I think that's a very wise move for us and for them. Live will not evolve into the best DAW out there, it will evolve into something nobody has seen before. just when the market is catching up with Live's unique session view Ableton radically changed course, BRILLIANT TIMING!!! AFAIK the only other move the competition can take would be to absorb Reaktor into their DAW to make this new kind of product that Live is going to become.

how does this benefit us? did we really give a shit about 64 bit summing? no, but they had to do it to keep up with Sonar. by doing their own thing Ableton and C74 can continue to blaze their own courses and decide their own destinies. let the other DAWs copy each other with half baked features that are kinda like what the other guy has. there are DAWs out there, if you want pure awesome DAW power look elsewhere, if you want to phreak out, use Ableton and C74's love child.

scientist wrote:the m4l workaround is simple enough that i have to wonder: if a single m4l patch can fix the problem (albeit with the need for a somewhat inelegant plug to be instantiated)

So how's the workflow in this m4l workaround, scientist? Does it require that you load this m4l device into the same midi track, or a new track on its own, or not load it at all? What did you find to be inelegant?

yes, I'm curious as to how this works.

sweet, looks like by the time I get max4Live there will already be lots of things to play with.

GIMME GIMME GIMME GIMME GIMME GIMME GIMME GIMME GIMME GIMME GIMME GIMME GIMME GIMME GIMME GIMME GIMME GIMME GIMME GIMME GIMME GIMME GIMME GIMME GIMME GIMME GIMME GIMME GIMME GIMME GIMME GIMME GIMME GIMME GIMME GIMME GIMME GIMME GIMME GIMME GIMME GIMME GIMME GIMME GIMME GIMME GIMME GIMME GIMME GIMME GIMME GIMME GIMME GIMME GIMME GIMME GIMME GIMME GIMME GIMME GIMME GIMME GIMME GIMME GIMME GIMME GIMME GIMME GIMME GIMME GIMME GIMME GIMME GIMME GIMME GIMME

This is where it's at. I wholeheartedly agree with TD on this. I just don't think M4L is going to be a suite of glorified plugins. I could be wrong but there's a decent chance that Max for Live in a few years time will become a movement and run for president. This could be huge. Jungle irie massive huge. In a way people will be making their own DAWs, there own guitar pedals, their own effects plugins - and sharing them. Max is pretty big in an underground way, this could blow the lid off by fooling novices like me into attempting basic programming in the friendly confines of Live. And then people share stuff and see what other people have done and get ideas from that, experiment and improve their creations. Pretty soon a tornado cyclone raptor hawk spirals into the stratosphere, illuminating a drab and weary world.

While I'm glad that Ableton add trad. DAW things like group tracks (I'd love to see track comping but it's never going to happen) - eventually they have to decide what they want to be. Live's never going to beat the others at their own game because they're too established. What Tone's saying is that they don't have to, don't want to, aren't going to, shouldn't. Better to do something completely different, make something new and unpredictable. M4L is a continuation of the type of thinking that made Session View in a way. I'm getting way too excited about this.

So what is more likely, Max For Live changes everything or England win the World Cup?