Turn it down...

[ChiDJ]

KISS. It may be simple Technically, but it's really not.

But it is...


It's just hard to remain disciplined when your writing and mixing. But, this discipline makes ALL the difference. DO NOT clip the master while you're writing, mixing, arranging. My DAW has a keyboard shortcut that let's you grab all faders at once and pull em down. Then bring the master and your aux's back to zero. I do it constantly. It took me years to realize how important this simple piece of advice is.

Tod

[Tarekith]

Massive thread that is! I didn't read it all, but it definitely looks to be full of great points as I skimmed it.

[mlee_aus]

I know a lot of you will also frequent the Gearslutz forum, but for those that don't ( or if you've missed it ) here's an incredibly informative thread concerning how to get the best results out of your DAW mixes.

http://www.gearslutz.com/board/so-much- ... mixes.html

It's a huge read - and not all of it makes much sense if you're not a total audio geek/expert - but when it stays OT it's rammed with invaluable advice.

I've been guilty of letting my mixes creep up to unmanageable levels lately, but I've tested the salient points of the 'turn it down' argument for myself with astounding results.

You should too.

Interesting read so basically we are saying we should stick a utility plugin at the beginning of our effects chains? Or something like the FreeG plugin from sonalksis (which is free?) This means we should be turning the individul faders down and turning the volume up with a gain plugin.


Pleas correct me if I am wrong.

When you say set your master bus to -6db are you saying that I should adjust the master fader down physically or should I just watch and pretend that -6 is where clipping occours?

I never touch the master fader, my master bus consists of a utility plugin to adjust gain into live compressor set to OPTO with 1.65 ratio and about 1 to 2DB of gain reduction into a cytomic glue compressor with ratio of 2 and about 2-4db of reduction into a nice mastering eq and then onto the vintage warmer2 with a limiter setting that is fairly transparent but driven slightly. This gives me great results. my mix should already be fairly well balanced and then I drive the output on the glue compressor to get my recording to around -10 to -9 db RMS. This kind of behaviour is pretty standard for the Dance, Rock, and Pop fraternities. you do need to experiment and adjust for sweet sports etc.

I learnt this trick from Ian Carey. (I know who cares)

[evernaut]

As long as you're leaving something in the region of -6dB headroom - as you seem to be with your set-up - that's fine.
But this is only if you then plan to have someone else master your tracks: if not, and your music style needs it - you can use up the headroom yourself & limit it all the way to 0dB if you want.

[Ball Sack]

Tagged

[CR78]

I usually keep individual tracks at -10db and the master around -5/-6: this gives the person mastering my tracks plenty of 'room' especially when the final track is cut to vinyl.

[ethios4]

I don't understand the point of this article for 100% ITB mixes. Are they saying that digital compressors and other effects will actually sound better at lower levels? I understand not clipping the master on export, but that's DAW 101. I usually put a Utility at the beginning of the master channel effects to bring down the levels as necessary before final effects, and to prevent clipping before FX that can't handle it, but is there really a technical reason to keep levels so low across the mix? Or is the benefit psychological? I can def understand the psychological reasons for doing this.

[evernaut]

Are they saying that digital compressors and other effects will actually sound better at lower levels? .

Yes.

And to further illustrate...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jKzOVHh6 ... r_embedded

[ethios4]

That video example is for an analog modeled compressor, so I still don't understand how a standard digital compressor's sound quality would be affected by signal level, aside from the obvious gain reduction functions, or any other digital effect, other than those aspects that are meant to be level-dependent.

[davepermen]

it should not be true for any digital effect as long as it's programmed with enough digital headroom. for simplicity two examples:

say you have 32bit values, 2 of them, and you want to sum them. if the output is 33bit, then no mather which 32bit values you add together, it will always be the perfect result. if you have two 32bit values and you want to multiply them, you need a 64bit output. the result will then always be perfect.

one can very exactly, during programming, estimate what's the final range of some effect, and then reduce the output based on that range back to, say, 32bit. there won't be any difference if you work in low db modes or high db modes, then, with one difference: low-db mode will use less bits to represent details, as those details just got cut off or dithered away by the reduction.

so if your plugin is not something that simulates bad quality at high volumes (by fault, might be a bug, or as an actual plan, might simulate some analogue device), then, in a fully digital environment, the only thing you have to fear is clipping. (but in-chain clipping as well, obviously. and that means not only if a track in ableton glows red, it's a problem. each and every effect can clip and result in faults due to that.)


so i still see no reason to go below 0 db in ableton live, as they explicitely state they designed live to always be in higher presision than what you can hear during effects and summing and all.

turn it down is a nice statement, but it's not a general fix for all solution that you have to blindly apply.

so i formulate it differently:

know your limits.

you have limits when turning up, and you have limits when turning down (silence is a very audible limit and artefact ).

know the limits of each of the components, know where it works best. but know, as well, that in a digital environment, every gain change is destructive to the sound. minimal, but it is. so, if you don't need to, then don't.

[Tone Deft]

^ that's assuming the effect is linear.

ethois - I don't have an answer.

(I haven't read that thread but I get where it's coming from, it's a good lesson to learn.)

[davepermen]

just assuming for the simplicity of the example. obviously, if you put gate at half, but turn the volume down to half just before it, it will act completely different (WHY HAVE I SILENCE NOW!!! )

[ethios4]

Well, I agree to some extent about turning it down. -20 might be a bit much for me, but I always keep my kicks at about -6db and build the mix around that, which is a technique that helped me control my volumes.

It seemed to me that the article was mixing things a bit....talking about ITB mixes, but then bringing in stuff about effects chains involving hardware. In that case, of course analog mixing standards apply, but that is not really an ITB mix, IMO.

[mlee_aus]

Well, I agree to some extent about turning it down. -20 might be a bit much for me, but I always keep my kicks at about -6db and build the mix around that, which is a technique that helped me control my volumes.

It seemed to me that the article was mixing things a bit....talking about ITB mixes, but then bringing in stuff about effects chains involving hardware. In that case, of course analog mixing standards apply, but that is not really an ITB mix, IMO.

Yeah I think you are right.. I also think that ITB mixers who have always been that way and have some experience under the belt are doing this instinctively. I too use -6db as a start level for my kicks and this does help I usually end up turning the kick down more as the mix progresses depending on how prominent a roll it plays in the song.

This article on GS would have been specifically intended for people coming over from analogue to digital or people who have to use both. The K-System proposed by Bob Katz (google it) would be a great thing for the music world I for one would definitely embrace it even though the dance music fraternity may not as they do like to squash the beejeesus out of their mixes.

[djsynchro]

This is my favourite line from the first post in that thread:

Running a Digital mix right to the top of the scale is like running your SSL mix buss where the VU meters are slammed all the way to the right and you are constantly hitting it at +25.

Total nonsense!