Ableton Forum

that's good advice. I rarely touch my SL since I got my APC.

- sliders for track volume (sliders are ideal for track volumes, knobs don't feel as proper.)

- shuttle control (start and stop.)

- controlling sends and pans and whatnot, they both do that.

- I have a bigger piano keyboard, so I don't need the keys on the SL.

that leaves the drum pads which were always way too hard for me. there's the automap display but I got tired of that, I don't like paging through parameters and I don't like the abbreviated names that show up. that leaves the joystick and the touch pad.


I bsae my setup around an APC, BCR2000, a 5 octave keyboard and of late, the Launch Pad which may or may not be right for you.

Well, I've decided that I definetly want the APC 40. But I still need a keyboard then. I was thinking about the MPK25 but then I heard that it felt really plasticy. Any comments on that?

**EDIT**
MPK doesn't seen like the right choice actually. Any other suggestions? I don't want to buy the wrong equipment first time around.

don't have one, but they look great next to the APC and really complement the APC's controls well. quite a few guys here have them. personally, if i was going the 25-key route, i'd opt for a Novation. But lately I've been looking at the MPK61. I just don't have room for that at the moment. I'm using a Novation Xio25. Bought it for it's synth function as I also have an Alesis Photon X25 (that I'm currently not using).

BoxDJ wrote:Wait, so this nativeKONTROL is a bunch presets for your MIDI controller allowing more functionality? So I saw the video, and he could control the drum rack like he was using a drum machine. You can't do this without nativeKONTROL right?

Correct. The nativeKONTROL plugins are a third party enhancement of the APC40 and PadKontrol.

BoxDJ wrote:What would the redundant features be?

Tone Deft covered it well above. The APC40 handles all of the mixer/controller functions in Live without the need for any programming or third party enhancements, straight out of the box.

BoxDJ wrote:Well, I've decided that I definetly want the APC 40. But I still need a keyboard then.

Well my perspective on this is somewhat off the beaten path... unless one has studied traditional piano or keyboard performance technique, the need for having a piano-looking musical input device is really just a thought form, or an agreed upon meme that goes unquestioned. Yet is it really true?

This is the real reason that I pointed out the nativeKONTROL plugins. Currently I am using the APC40 as a musical input device, using the CL2+TC2 plugins, and leaving the keyboards at home. If one wants or needs velocity sensitivity (APC40 pads are not velocity sensitive), a Korg PadKontrol and the full pKC bundle can be used as a Live mixer, controller, clip launcher, drum rack trigger and musical input device, basically replacing the need for an APC40 or keyboard controller altogether.

Then of course one can use an alphanumeric USB keyboard with Live's Key input and Learn, along with Caps Lock, to "play" and trigger live with more than 25 keys. The point is that there are other types of musical input devices available.

Now back in normal land...

I have 25, 49 and 76 key keyboards here, and am studied in traditional keyboard technique. In my opinion, for someone who has learned how to play a keyboard or piano as an instrument, or who wants to learn how, the smallest octave length they should consider is a 49 key. A 25 key is good for triggering single notes and samples, for midi sequencer input and for playing one handed chords within a single octave, or for using with an arpeggiator; however it is simply not enough notes to play with traditional keyboard technique, or to work with sounds and libraries that use key switching a lot, as the constant octave transposing to navigate can be very irritating.

If having a good feel and velocity sensitivity on a keyboard are important to you, then the ability to play with two hands should be too, so get a 49 key controller with semi-weighted keys. If you get a 25 key, at some point you will wish that you had gotten a bigger one, or will end up buying one anyway.

I have and recommend the M-Audio Axiom 49 (non-pro version), because the semi-weighted keys have a good feel, it doesn't look like a plastic toy or light up like a spaceship or neon billboard, it offers advanced midi controller programming on multiple channels, has traditional MIDI I/O for controlling external hardware, and the pad triggers have aftertouch, which Akai and Korg do not.

For those who do not already play a keyboard, or don't really want or need to learn how, I would question whether you really even need one at all, unless your brain just really wants to stare at a piano-looking input device while creating music. If so, then get a Korg NanoKey and call it a day.

Edit: Summation for practical advice:
1) Consider a semi-weighted 49 key controller, whatever brand
2) Consider using a Korg PadKontrol + the nativeKONTROL pKC plugin bundle for everything
3) Consider using the APC40 for musical input with the nativeKONTROL apC-CL2 plugin
4) The original, non-pro M-Audio Axiom 49 is a solid choice for a keyboard controller

I highly recommend Audio Technica M50 headphones. They were recommended to me (and many others) here on the forum and they are the bomb! They cost a little more than the aforementioned Seinheisers, but sound great and are really comfortable.

I dunno about the KRKs like Bleep Blop Ima Robot said, they get mixed reviews here on the forum. Their cost is reasonable, but I think you may be able to do a little better especially if you shave off one of those controllers from above. I have M-Audio BX8a monitors and while they're not top o the line, they are priced well and I think they're better than KRKs. Another thing to consider with monitors is that they will always work with you on your mix where controllers may have a way of taking a back seat. If your going to throw down a little extra loot on your purchases... this is a good spot to do it.

I have an M-Audio Axiom 25 (non-pro little brother or 49 mentioned in previous post) and its a cool little unit. I don't use it much these days, but the only real gripe I get is the occasional real piano/keyboard player stops by and its short, of course, its only got 25 keys.

If you don't buy equipment that came out last week or this morning you can save a ton of money and still have all the fun and make good music.

If I were you, knowing what I know now, I would follow the previous advice of buying the bare essentials. Learn what you've bought and figure out whether its doing it for you or if you need something else to fill in the void if there is one... take your time. Gear gathering dust is not nearly as cool as having something you really need.

good luck

H20nly wrote:If I were you, knowing what I know now, I would follow the previous advice of buying the bare essentials. Learn what you've bought and figure out whether its doing it for you or if you need something else to fill in the void if there is one... take your time. Gear gathering dust is not nearly as cool as having something you really need.

Well said. Very good advice.

warning: OT

Akshara wrote:unless one has studied traditional piano or keyboard performance technique, the need for having a piano-looking musical input device is really just a thought form, or an agreed upon meme that goes unquestioned. Yet is it really true?

You're not off the beaten path at all, Akshara. I've been thinking about this of late, too. At the most basic level of laziness: Seems like, while packing gear up to play a laptop show, the crappiest thing to round up / protect is the keyboard (nevermind once you actually get there and find out the "counter" you could put your controller on is a actually a milk crate). Disclaimer: I am the keyboard-technique equivalent of a hunt-and-peck typist, however, so this probably isn't as important to me as it is for you.

This might be a good subject for another thread.

I have to echo Akshara's recommend on the Axiom 49, though. If you want something that decently approximates the feel of real keys in a constrained space, the keyboard on the Axiom is hard to beat for the price range (i.e. less than $1000).