OT: election scare tactics

cyclyk · Post by **cyclyk** » Tue Oct 12, 2004 1:29 pm

ah ok thank you, good news!

futureproof · Post by **futureproof** » Tue Oct 12, 2004 5:49 pm

milfbait wrote:Well the I don't know about Australia, but the US is a nation based on fear. It's on the news, it's in commercials, it's in the churches, workplaces and schools. Humans want to be comfortable and safe more than anything else. Fear gives politicians great leverage. Dick Cheney made my stomach turn when he basically said "Vote for Bush, or you will be responsible for another terrorist attack."

You hit the nail on the head. How long will it take for people to wake up, stand up and say "your fear tactics will not work with me!" Its really that simple...these people would not be in power if people were not scared.

This a VERY old political tactic that has been used to control people for millennia. An example would be Constantine taking the doctrine of reincarnation out of the Bible.

There is another tactic that is commonly used also. It's called "problem, reaction, solution".
you (politician, priest whatever) create a problem without the public knowing who's behind it, the public reacts and demands change, you offer that change. This requires a bit more work so now politicians just simply resort to the fear factor more and more.

forge · Post by **forge** » Tue Oct 12, 2004 7:12 pm

am wrote: i know mate!! it's ridiculous.... but remember that Midnight oil song "redneck wonderland"... sad that we have a nation that seems to value economic rationalism above humanitarianism and the environment.

-am

sadly it's the times and Oz is no different to th rest of the world

the Gough Whitlams of the world are a thing of the past these days, and I'd guess that in the 5 years since I left, old Mr Magoo would have pretty much destroyed everything good Gough ever did to make the 'lucky country' our generation was fortunate enough to grow up in in the 80s, (except maybe the abolition of TV licenses and giving aboriginals the vote - they might not quite get away with undoing those!)

I'll be watching the US elections through a gap in between my fingers because if Bush gets in again I really worry what will happen to the world and would expect war to be the norm in the near future - like Sharon in Israel, these hardliners have created more insecurity - sure there was trouble in Israel but I never remember it being this bad before Sharon - Like wise with Bush - this Iraq bullshit is doing nothing but encouraging violence and terrorism - but that's what they want because people in fear are easier to manipulate

but then even good ole boy steve earle is anti bush I saw on telly, I sincerely hope enough of the American people vote to get him out

peeddrroo · Post by **peeddrroo** » Tue Oct 12, 2004 9:44 pm

forge wrote:but then even good ole boy steve earle is anti bush I saw on telly, I sincerely hope enough of the American people vote to get him out

why do you want american ppl to get steve earl out?
and who is steve earl anyway?

pax · Post by **pax** » Tue Oct 12, 2004 10:13 pm

Don't forget George Soros...

www.georgesoros.com

I think from Kofi Anna to George Soros, there are lots of people in very high positions who have a pretty good scope of the situation and would love to see things change.

I liked the Onion's spin on things:
The Nation's Liberals Suffering From Outrage Fatigue.
http://www.theonion.com/election2004/news_4027.php

Sums things up nicely.

I think sadly, one of the best things to do is take a comedic look at things.

hitherto · Post by **hitherto** » Tue Oct 12, 2004 10:21 pm

firstly, lets disect that comment.
you are scared. who put this fear into your heart?

secondly, our nation could put $200+ Billion towards healthcare if we hadn't have chosen to invade Iraq, a nation that never attacked us. (911 commission anyone?), and if Bush didn't give a tax cut to the richest 1%.
But he had to subsidize all those campaign contributions one way or another right?

I couldn't agree with you more, that was a waste of $200+ Billion of our hard earned money. It could have been spent protecting our homeland. Maybe they could have used it to scan 2% of the containers that are imported instead of just 1%.

I am a small business owner. I pay for my own helthcare. I also know how much money our gov. takes from us, because I have to write a check every 3 months to pay my taxes. I haven't been trained to look away when our money is removed from our paychecks before we ever get them.

I think that people should be responsible for paying for their own health care. I don't think that that should be the gov's business. I am much better at spending my money than the gov. Health care is not a right it is something that you earn, just as shelter, transportation, and communication are not rights. I mean if the gov. is gonna pay for our health care then they should pay for our Rent, Electricity, Cars, Gas, Cell Phones and Internet connections.

Why can't everybody just pay for their own health care??? Those who are not responsable enough to do so probubly have a car and a cell phone. Pay your health insurance first!!!

Just my opinion. I mean look how our governments spend our money. They don't know what is right for me. I want the freedom to make my own decisions, pay my own bills, and make my own mistakes.

AdamJay · Post by **AdamJay** » Tue Oct 12, 2004 10:51 pm

hitherto wrote: Why can't everybody just pay for their own health care??? Those who are not responsable enough to do so probubly have a car and a cell phone. Pay your health insurance first!!!

i have to disagree with that.
its a systemic problem that has everything to do with money.
The United States has the WORST public transportation system among developed nations in the world. In most of the country you simply HAVE to own a car if you want to get to work in a timely manner. A car becomes just as much a living expense as Rent and Electricity. The automobile industry doesn't spend billions of dollars a year lobbying politicians so that politicians will push public trains and buses. The goal of lobbyists is to ensure their industries profits.

So when it comes down to, needing to own a car so that you can drive to work and drive to the store - an automobile becomes a necessity to survive. Especially in the more poor rural areas where walking 10 miles to work when you have children is simply out of the question.

everything that politicians take from lobbyists end up as devices to keep the rich richer and the poor poorer.

there is a higher percentage of impoverished people in the US today than ever before, do you think thats just because they are too lazy or don't have the will to get out of the gutter? If you do, thats probably because you've never lived in poverty. I used to think that all people had to do was buckle down and make the effort to get out of being poor, but when i myself sank down into that gutter i soon learned its not that easy.

Look at the typical impoverished American, why is he/she impoverished?
First of all theres a good chance they were born into poverty. We live in a classist society. The majority of people born into the higher class remain there, and the same for the middle class - though not all of them. The lower class is no different.
Second, its a good bet that they aren't given as good as an education as the family 20 miles away with an extra 50 grand a year in income is getting. Better education equates to better opportunities later in life.

I think you can have the opinion that we design our own destiny when and ONLY when we are all given the same opportunities in life. In a classist society that will never happen.

AdamJay · Post by **AdamJay** » Tue Oct 12, 2004 11:07 pm

not to mention in the lower class it is becoming INCREASINGLY difficult to find a full time job, and further difficult to find one with health benefits.

Kerry's stance is as long as healthcare is privatized, there are stockholders involved. and profits MUST happen. thus premiums are increased. and the end result is we as individuals pay more for healthcare.

if you let the government in on healthcare - the american people are the stockholders. and we get paid that dividend by seeing far lower premiums.
under his plan you yourself in 4 years time are able to get a lower premium on the healthcare you pay for now, lets say its $10 less a month, but you are paying $5 more in taxes a month in order to help fund the program. Well in the end you are getting the same care, for $60 less a year. Multiply that $60 by the amount of people paying for healthcare today and you'll come up with a figure in the high billions. That high billions is the CEO and CFO's of the insurance industies salaries. The litttle people that work for the insurance agencies won't lose their jobs. The industry is still there, its now just an aspect of the gov't instead of a publicly heald commodity.

In other words, today you are paying for 2 things. Your own healthcare and the salaries of several overpayed higher management positions. Further more you are giving them money to lobby with in Washington so they can insure their overpayed positions.
Your other option is to pay for you and your neighbors healthcare, the end result is far less expensive.

Now we see why the insurance industry, just like the automobile industry and every other industry with overpayed upper management positions spend so many millions and billions of dollars lobbying in Washington. They're trying to save their salaries. The fact that Dick Cheney was the CEO of a company that has now overcharged our gov't for dishing creamed corn in Iraq only deepens the rabbit hole.

pax · Post by **pax** » Tue Oct 12, 2004 11:29 pm

I dropped out of medical school, precisely because of what the health care business has become in the states:

we, as a country, have this really sick fascination with immortality.

We don't want anyone to die. Ever.

So we have all these billion-dollar machines to keep people alive forever (or until they don't remember who the fOck they are)

but, there aren't enough resources in the world for everyone to have access to all these machines... and all these machines have to be paid for... so what happens? rich people (or people who work for corporations) have health care and can pay for this. Poor people, increasingly, get swept aside.

Truth is, until you reach about 40 years of age, most chronic health ailments can be cured by: COMMON SENSE!

and most traumatic injuries could be taken care of without huge ICUs (ask any guy in Iraq what a field hospital looks like)

Just to become a doctor in the United States currently costs around $80,000 US.

Ask any Mexican immigrant who comes to the states and wonders around wondering what to do after they fell off the house they were painting...

We should be obsessed with the quality of life... not its quantity.

AdamJay · Post by **AdamJay** » Tue Oct 12, 2004 11:35 pm

yes it was very humbling when i went to Bosnia. i felt burdened with guilt for being able to have more than soup for a meal.

its not a hidden issue either. when 911 happened, they all said we need to "preserve our way of life". Which in other words means if you want to drive an SUV and be able to fill it up for less than $30 - we gotta go out and either kill some people or make sure they stay really damn poor.

Its this American complex of whats in our best interest. Thats why Bush must leave or McWorld vs. Gihad will continue indefinitely.

Winterpark · Post by **Winterpark** » Wed Oct 13, 2004 12:24 am

pax wrote: The Nation's Liberals Suffering From Outrage Fatigue.
http://www.theonion.com/election2004/news_4027.php

I'm sure this is what happened with the Australian election for some people. We just lost the outrage that we had when Irag was invaded.... there were so many people from all walks of life who were so disgusted that we were getting involved in an INVASION that had NOTHING to do with us.... and i wonder which way all those people voted?

obviously not a protest vote against the government that put our country in this position.

AdamJay wrote: Kerry's stance is as long as healthcare is privatized, there are stockholders involved. and profits MUST happen. thus premiums are increased. and the end result is we as individuals pay more for healthcare.

yes! this is exactly right!... it's the thing about capitalism that doesn't work. people look towards profit margins at the expense of other people...

... It's like a lot of people collectively struggling to climb some imaginary ladder of success, stepping on other people's fingers on the way up.

-am

AdamJay · Post by **AdamJay** » Wed Oct 13, 2004 12:31 am

i just watched an excellent German film called "Good Bye Lenin".
it was about the fall of socialism in east germany.
the way capitalism was personified in that movie was so satirical yet so dead on. Showing a fat guy in a swimming suit eating a huge hamburger in his back yard next to the pool with a bunch of plastic pool toys scattered around the yard. Coca Cola banners everywhere, etc. etc.

Coincidentally i had watched earlier that night "Super Size Me". Cultural overload!

The more you look on capitalism from the outside the more you see it cannot exist without an extremely impoverished third world. The term "Rat-Race" couldn't be more fitting.

Winterpark · Post by **Winterpark** » Wed Oct 13, 2004 12:39 am

hitherto wrote: I mean if the gov. is gonna pay for our health care then they should pay for our Rent, Electricity, Cars, Gas, Cell Phones and Internet connections.

Why can't everybody just pay for their own health care??? Those who are not responsable enough to do so probubly have a car and a cell phone. Pay your health insurance first!!!

it's a shame that people are sold an idea by the media... that idea is that mobile phones with mp3 players and video messaging will make you cool, and a new car will make your status higher.

this is a much bigger problem than it appears.

as for paying rent/electricity etc...

no of course not... but there are things that just shouldn't be in the hands of corportaions that have the money making agenda above the humanitarian agenda...

these are: education, health, and housing.

i mean everyone should have an "equality of opportunity" to these things. That means the right to be able to access these even if you have NO money, so you can make something of your life even if you were born into unfortunate circumstances... If you don't then your society collapses! the poor, (who are at the bottom of the proverbial food chain) get poorer, the middle class try and keep themselves afloat, and the rich make money off it!

-am

hitherto · Post by **hitherto** » Wed Oct 13, 2004 1:11 am

Adam,

I just spent a half an hour posting a resonse to your post, but it logged me out. So i guess it wasn't ment to be.

Maybe later....when I am done making money to pay for my healthcare that I never use.

AdamJay · Post by **AdamJay** » Wed Oct 13, 2004 1:22 am

hehe fair enough

OT: election scare tactics

Re: The only thing you have to fear is the inability to fear

Re: The only thing you have to fear is the inability to fear