Ableton Forum

hoffman2k wrote:Like Slow Riot just pointed out, the instrument may be more important than the effect.
To do this with existing instruments that don't support microtuning would require a synth per note.

thanks a lot guys for all the input so far! hoffman2k: could you read this as if Surge can be microtuned in Live: http://forum.vemberaudio.se/index.php/topic,395.0.html

ze2be wrote:

hoffman2k wrote:Like Slow Riot just pointed out, the instrument may be more important than the effect.
To do this with existing instruments that don't support microtuning would require a synth per note.

thanks a lot guys for all the input so far! hoffman2k: could you read this as if Surge can be microtuned in Live: http://forum.vemberaudio.se/index.php/topic,395.0.html

No, I read it as Claes being of the same opinion. To pull it off you need help from the host software. M4L is that help, but that doesn't update the actual plugin you wish to tune.

it is very much possible to play any soft synth microtonally... it's just a question of how much of a pain in the arse it is.

slow riot wrote:it is very much possible to play any soft synth microtonally... it's just a question of how much of a pain in the arse it is.

Haha! Well I like to work hard. Whats you got?

i've listed all the methods I use.

basically this program which does the midi pitch bending thing (and a whole lot more).. http://www.nonoctave.com , and sometimes loading a few instances of the same synth (and maybe having the filter after all of them)

and you can either find a tool like this. or find a way to implement the same thing in m4l. for which hoffman2k has loaded up a page which basically tells you one particular solution. If you're not familiar with max this, however, is not an easy thing at all to start out with.

You can do microtuning fairly easily though if you use a synth built in max, which might be a better option. or to find a soft synth which supports native microtuning,

and as a side note. microtuning is completely amazing.

slow riot wrote:i've listed all the methods I use.

basically this program which does the midi pitch bending thing (and a whole lot more).. http://www.nonoctave.com , and sometimes loading a few instances of the same synth (and maybe having the filter after all of them)

and you can either find a tool like this. or find a way to implement the same thing in m4l. for which hoffman2k has loaded up a page which basically tells you one particular solution. If you're not familiar with max this, however, is not an easy thing at all to start out with.

You can do microtuning fairly easily though if you use a synth built in max, which might be a better option. or to find a soft synth which supports native microtuning,

Thanks. The Albino vst for instance supports micro tuning. It can import tuning files. But id like to use Surge.

The Max Magic Microtuner seems great to create tuning scale files for synths that support it:

Max Magic Microtuner is a Macintosh application (OS X and OS 9 Carbon) for creating and editing microtonal scales and keyboard mappings; as a special feature it allows Max/MSP and Pluggo users to generate their own alternate tuning external objects by converting specially formatted text files into C-compiled Max/MSP MIDI-to-frequency externals. These tuning text files contain the intonation table data and can be created and edited with Max Magic Microtuner itself or with other text editors. You can export the intonation table data in a text format that is compatible with the read method of the Max "Coll" object. You can create, import, edit and export 128-note MIDI Tuning Standard keymap files (.syx, .mid) compatible with the Native Instruments FM7 softsynth and with all software and hardware synthesizers supporting the MTS format; you can also import and export native Scala (.scl) microtuning files, export Korg OASYS PCI audio card tuning files (.tun), and export Native Instruments Pro-52/Pro-53 tuning files (.p5m).

http://www.macmusic.org/software/view.p ... Microtuner

and as a side note. microtuning is completely amazing.

I know, i freagin love it, and i wanted to do it for years.

LMAO looks great!

Retunes many many softsynths and samplers, even those in Reason™, Ableton Live, and Kontakt™.

http://www.nonoctave.com/tuning/LilMissScaleOven/
However yet again, osx only..

slow riot wrote:You can do microtuning fairly easily though if you use a synth built in max, which might be a better option. or to find a soft synth which supports native microtuning,

It would be great to recreate Surge in Max! But that would probably take me at least a year. The whole point with Surge is how fast it is to patch cables to the 12 lfos/14 envelopes. Its just like rack macros, just a little bit faster: click assign directly. I have hundreds of preset creations in Surge. It would take me years to re-create them in Zebra, or any other modular synth. Except if it was a similar efficient system. Then id re-create them in a week.

sorry, missed the earlier mention

this page has a max microtonal synth example download. just found it, haven't run, yet.


http://homepage.mac.com/cerullo/.Public ... _specs.htm

report from the microtune trenches

I've been playing around with microtuned scales, and the integration of microtonal materials in my
production environment. I am using Ableton Live 8.13 with max4live, Max/msp (5.1), NI Kontakt, and a variety
of vst synths (synplant). The test environment is Vista sp2. Midi-Yoke is installed.

I purchased a micro-tuning box from H-Pi Systems. this allows connection of midi inputs and outputs to standard midi
devices with adjustments to a particular scale made using midi pitch bend. H-Pi's download page includes several
programs of Interest, including CSE (Custom Scale Editor) and Scala.

The CSE program includes a "live" mode if you have purchased a control box which allows direct connection (including
usb midi) of standard midi keyboards using scales from presets, from scala format, or from your created or modified scales.
The live mode allows selection of midi inputs and outputs. Leave the 'live mode' window open when using it, or the settings
will not work. (I had several hours of frustration, while learning this lesson). Scales may be downloaded from CSE to the
portable midi box, which uses either wall wart or battery power. The CSE program can load Scala scales which are available
in many tuning configurations. The CSE download includes a Reaktor tuning template, which I have not used, yet.

My test configuration uses the microtonal CSE in live mode along with obo(128) .98 under max/msp, monomeserial connected to
gs64 and gs128, Ableton live for the sound and vst integration, and Midi Yoke for midi routing between the applications. Since
H-Pi includes mac versions of software a similar result should be possible using the iac bus for midi. I atttach screenshots of Ableton
and CSE setups below. (can't see how to attach, in this forum) cross post at
http://post.monome.org/comments.php?Dis ... e=1#Item_0) has images

Ableton vst's are set to a midi-yoke input with a separate port number for each vst in order to allow the microtuner outputs (up to 16)
multiple notes playing simultaneously. These inputs may be grouped, as in the screen shot. there is no restriction on the mixing of vst's
(I'm using a different sound for a drone, in the shown image).

The obo midi outs are set to the number which the CSE program in live mode uses for input. The CSE outputs are set to a midi-yoke number
which Ableton will use for input (ableton should be set in midi options to allow input from the midi yoke input).

Obo will use the existing row and column choices to change the output midi note numbers according to the existing traditional patterns.
The interpretation of these numbers will depend on the scale loaded into the CSE program. It should be possible to use the custom
pattern feature of obo to make patterns which fit the scale system loaded in CSE.

think I'll explore that next.

this strategy should work for any control program that can see the routing buses (iac or midi-yoke), as far as I can tell. In addition the
CSE and Scala programs give a method for adaption of many hundreds of scale systems.

links:
h-pi - http://www.h-pi.com/
h-pi downloads - http://www.h-pi.com/downloads.html
midi-yoke - http://www.midiox.com/myoke.htm
synplant - http://www.soniccharge.com/synplant

Hmm.. Thats cool.. Please keep us updated on your research!

Is it possible to do it with Max for Live alone?

U he ACE, Zebra

NI Absynth

...all load 'scala' .tun files

and the free Oatmeal does microtuning as well...

and I do believe almost every sampler will do
(as you can tune each note)
also...
I'm thinking Max can be used quite easily to build a microtonal synth...(per-note tuning)

Is there a way to microtune synths or Live instruments in realtime without using pitchbend events ??

no