Ableton Forum

The 2 and 3 will never line up perfectly with each other

What are your thoughts on the numbers 6 and 12?

This incompatibility between symmetry and asymmetry is the basis of rhythmic tension.

This means truncating a rhythm to fit in the prescribed time. This is the basis for syncopation.

Thanks Professor, you are the basis of ... nevermind.

^ that's not called for, he knows he's posting an idea that's kind of out there.

Good lookin out Tone Deft.

Tone Deft wrote:those patterns WILL line up, eventually. think 'greatest common multiplier' from grade school math.

something of length 7 and something of length 4 line up at (at least) 7*4 = 28, then the pattern repeats itself.

if you get where I'm coming from and can point out how I'm not getting you I'd be curious.

My buddy went away to India (and recently Antarctica but that's not the point) and he taught the whole band a bunch of strange time signatures and count-offs. one of them was 7's and 11's I believe, and other odd timings that would evenutally meet back up with each other whether it was 28, 21, 40, etc..

Not easy I'll tell you that..

You should do an audio book where you explain all this in detail, I have been trouble sleeping lately this would knock me out for sure

Life is a mystery music is a subset of life and ultimately a mystery. Grammar somewhat helps to learn about, catalog and explain a language, it is not the language. The language is the wording of a culture, it's people love misery humor and food. Bars beats divisions harmony clusters theory scales somewhat explain the language of music, they are no subsitute for making and or experiencing a piece of music, in the eternal moment that is now.

Om Nama Shiva!

I like the thoughts put out here. My 2 cents

Since you are "truncating" the end of the phrases there according to your will (or making the 1 pop, or however you like to aesthetically describe this) you are breaking the poly-rhythms. If you haven't researched or studied them I can attest to their beauty ad strongly encourage you do look further into it. I think what you are onto here is like a very very basic theory of rhythmic tension which to be honest is quite under documented in general or at least compared to it's "harmonic tension" counterpart. I had a teacher years ago that was writing a book on this type of thing. I should look him up and see if he's done it.

Ideas to further your experiments there.

-wait longer to truncate the overlapped rhythm like every two bars or three bars.

-if you are using different instrumentation for the rhythm parts try switching which instrument plays what rhythm.

and this one is a big luke Vibert and Frank Zappa staple
- start the begging of the song with the "untruncated poly rythms" or the over lapped part (you know what I mean) and then bring in the main part(s) (usually the 4/4 or whatever) and start "truncating" and it's like pulling the rug out from the listener

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3NFpBxxK4QM
this is a example of said technique that I just love

Way to put stuff out there
Kudos

@ synchro - +1 on both posts

@ musgrove - Yea, that's what I'm talking about....breaking polyrhythms. It feels very rudimentary to me, I've felt sure it's been discovered as a theory before but I hadn't read anything about it...it 's like saying "ok, there's the I chord and the V chord and they have such and such relationship. In fact, it is the I/V harmonic relationship that got me thinking about this. The octave/unity relationship is based on symmetric division of vibrating column (even harmonic?), the perfect fifth relationship is based on the division by 3 (odd harmonic?)...and thus the circle of fifths/ chromatic scale is born.

If there is writing on this subject I'd love to read it....been thinking about it for awhile and haven't made it much beyond this point, which makes me question how far the theory can really go. I really like the ideas for experimentation you put out there....already got my gears turning...

myxomat0515 wrote:What are your thoughts on the numbers 6 and 12?

How do you feel about music with 6 and 12 bar phrase lengths? To me it feels strange...not bad, but strange. I think that is because we seem to favor symmetric time divisions over asymmetric....the vast majority of popular music is based on 4,8,16,32,64,128 bar length phrases....going against that pattern creates tension.

So yea, 3 against 2 lines up after 12, but that is itself an asymmetric pattern.

With 2 you have an easy duality between 1 and 2. If you expand that out you get symmetric patterns at every level.
[{(1/2)/(1/2)/(1/2)/(1/2)}/{(1/2)/(1/2)/(1/2)/(1/2)}]

That pattern is broken if it is truncated at 12
[{(1/2)/(1/2)/(1/2)/(1/2)}/{(1/2)/(1/2)}]

Anyway, i'm doing a terrible job explaining this, so i think i'll wait until i have a minute to make some wavs and pics. I'm interested in getting this idea across...it's neat stuff to me in a geeky way.

Ah but you should try to incorporate more complex rhythms into this! In Macedonian, Greek, Bulgarian & Turkish music, for instance, meters in 5, 7, 9, 11, 13, 15, 22 are all very common, and are generally broken down into *sequences* of 2s & 3s. For example, a common 9/8 rhythm is counted 12 12 12 123 (2223 for short), or written quarter quarter quarter dotted-quarter. Commonly it's felt (folks dance to all these things) as quick quick quick slow.

While you *could* stick this on top of three bars of three, you lose the feeling completely by doing that. Plus, that doesn't work out for an 11/16 (22322 or 32222), 5/16 (23), 7 (223 or 322, either 16ths, 8ths or quarters), or 22/8 (2223 2223 22).

Have fun trying to incorporate all this

Next step: some rhythms incorporate a "stretch," or a beat that has variable length, depending on the melodic phrase & even the whim of the bandleader!

~peter in oakland

ethios4 wrote:@ synchro - +1 on both posts

Nice one! Keep pumping

ethios4 wrote:If there is writing on this subject I'd love to read it....

Check out Henry Cowell's New Musical Resources. The chapter on meter is where he goes into a theory of metrical harmony. Basically he takes the idea of proportions that exist between the chord tones of triads and such and derives meters related by similar ratios to in effect form something like "metrical chords."

ethios4 wrote:If there is writing on this subject I'd love to read it....

Unlocking the Groove

twisted-space wrote:

ethios4 wrote:If there is writing on this subject I'd love to read it....

Unlocking the Groove

+1 kicks behind that book does.

outershpongolia wrote:

Tone Deft wrote:those patterns WILL line up, eventually. think 'greatest common multiplier' from grade school math.

something of length 7 and something of length 4 line up at (at least) 7*4 = 28, then the pattern repeats itself.

if you get where I'm coming from and can point out how I'm not getting you I'd be curious.

My buddy went away to India (and recently Antarctica but that's not the point) and he taught the whole band a bunch of strange time signatures and count-offs. one of them was 7's and 11's I believe, and other odd timings that would evenutally meet back up with each other whether it was 28, 21, 40, etc..

Not easy I'll tell you that..

i went to a sitar recital many years ago, the program notes explained a little about the time signatures and scales used - amazing how much it helped to get a grip of the music for a newcomer. i thought it was 13's but maybe it was 11's... it's a similar thing listening to jazz, where time sigs can be complicated and change through a piece, but there's usually a return and reset.

some good links up there - any other good, simple web links on times signatures and how to count/detect them? from scratch it's one thing i can't wrap my brain around