chords and scales ! WOW

Discuss music production with Ableton Live.
milfbait
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Post by milfbait » Tue Nov 02, 2004 7:38 am

dirtystudios wrote:the chords of any given scale are represented by roman numerals for the scale degree of the root of that chord. for instance in the key of c major, the scale begins and ends on c and a c chord (ceg) would be represented by the roman numeral I. an f chord (fac) in the key of c would be referred to as the IV in this key, and so on. here's the chart of typical chord progressions as most commonly seen in the major scale of contemporary western music. this is of course only a guildine as to what is commonly heard, and is by no way a rule to be stricktly adheared to.

(chord notes in c)

I (ceg) - may move to any chord
ii (dfa) - may move to V or vii
iii (egb) - may move to ii, IV or vi
IV (fac) - may move to I, ii, V or vii
V (gbd) - may move to I or vi
vi (ace) - may move to ii, IV, V or vii
vii (bdf) - may move to I or V

in the minor mode it is slightly different

(chord notes in a, c's relative minor)
i (ace) - may move to any chord
ii (bdf) - V or vii
III (ceg) - may move to ii, iv, V or vii
iv (dfa) - may move to ii, V, vii
V (egb) - may move to i or Vi
VI (fac) - may move to ii, iv, V or vii
vii (gbd) - may move to i, V or VI

another cool bit of info when in the minor mode is using a melodic or harmonic minor scale instead of the natural minor. for instance the natural a minor scale begins and ends on a and uses only the white keys on the piano, like so:

a b c d e f g a

however the harmonic minor raises the seventh scale degree a half step, meaning that you would play a g sharp (the black key just before the a) rather than a g natural so the scale would be:

a b c d e f g# a

in the melodic minor, we alter it again, but it's a bit different. when a melody is going up the scale we raise the sixth and seventh scale degrees a half step each, but when it's going down, we lower them back to the natural minor, so:

a b c d e f# g# a g(natural) f(natural) e d c b a

try using the harmonic minor when playing chords in a minor key and try using the melodic minor when playing melodies in a minor key.

music theory man...it goes on and on and on and on...
Excellent post. I have a question. I am confused with the different types of minor scales.

for example, starting on A and going up the white keys =

w-h-w-w-h-w-w The Aeolian Mode

But there's also Dorian (w-h-w-w-w-h-w) and another one I can't think of.

So when someone says "minor scale" which one are they referring to?

I know there is harmonic minor, melodic minor, and natural minor, are these the only 3? And what modes do they refer to. Thanks. :)

milfbait
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Post by milfbait » Tue Nov 02, 2004 7:46 am

Oh and the Roman numeral thing, is that always in C or can it be in any key?

Moonburnt
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Post by Moonburnt » Tue Nov 02, 2004 9:20 am

I guess if someone just says "minor scale" i'd be inclined to assume they meant natural minor since it's the "real" minor scale. In practice however, the minor modes are somewhat interchangable, so you can be in one type of minor in one bar, and another minor in the next.

yes the roman numerals apply to any key, but C is the easiest to give examples in.

some more about them modes...
dorian = major starting on scale degree 2 (sounds like minor but with a natural 6)
phrygian = major starting on scale degree 3 (like minor but with a b2)
lydian = major starting on scale degree 4 (sounds same as major but with a #4)
mixolydian = major starting on scale degree 5 (major with a b7)
natural minor = major starting on scale degree 6
locrian = major starting on scale degree 7 (a bit of a bastard, as you have a #5 and no notes that sound like they want to go back to the root)

hoffman2k
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Post by hoffman2k » Tue Nov 02, 2004 9:51 am

Moody wrote:I have been looking for a while on a "Bible" of music theory. I want an end all resource when I am stuck on a question... Anybody seen a book of this sort out there?
I dont know if this would be helpfull for you, but it helps for me if stuff gets to technical.

http://musicnet.chandra.ac.th/eng/mus_dic.htm

mike holiday
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Post by mike holiday » Tue Nov 02, 2004 10:08 am

Moody wrote:I have been looking for a while on a "Bible" of music theory. I want an end all resource when I am stuck on a question... Anybody seen a book of this sort out there?
there is a keyboard version of this book by the same author

http://www.guitargrimoire.com/

its all maps

Moody
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Post by Moody » Tue Nov 02, 2004 2:27 pm

Thank You! :D

imekon
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Post by imekon » Tue Nov 02, 2004 7:59 pm

All good stuff!

:D

darcyb
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Post by darcyb » Tue Nov 02, 2004 9:24 pm

hoffman2k wrote:I made some chords and scale presets based on http://www.looknohands.com/chordhouse/piano
Hoffman, that's brilliant! I love it.

I've always played by ear and barely know any theory. But what a pleasant surprise to learn that one of my favorite compositions uses the C Phrygian scale. Cool!

solutionsagent
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Post by solutionsagent » Wed Nov 03, 2004 11:12 pm

darcyb wrote:
hoffman2k wrote:I made some chords and scale presets based on http://www.looknohands.com/chordhouse/piano
Hoffman, that's brilliant! I love it.

I've always played by ear and barely know any theory. But what a pleasant surprise to learn that one of my favorite compositions uses the C Phrygian scale. Cool!
What do the Grey Dots represent? Brilliant work btw.
SolutionsAgent

hoffman2k
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Post by hoffman2k » Wed Nov 03, 2004 11:21 pm

The grey dots are optional notes. It's always displayed in the text box below wich chord you have without the grey dots.

dirtystudios
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Post by dirtystudios » Thu Nov 04, 2004 6:10 am

milfbait wrote:
Excellent post. I have a question. I am confused with the different types of minor scales.

for example, starting on A and going up the white keys =

w-h-w-w-h-w-w The Aeolian Mode

But there's also Dorian (w-h-w-w-w-h-w) and another one I can't think of.

So when someone says "minor scale" which one are they referring to?

I know there is harmonic minor, melodic minor, and natural minor, are these the only 3? And what modes do they refer to. Thanks. :)
when people say "minor", 99% of the time they will be refering to the aeolian mode. the natural, melodic and harmonic minor keys are the most popular minor variations on this scale.

however, to say that these are the only variations would be rediculous, as one is free to use whatever keys, variations or tunings that you want to.

k

hoffman2k
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Post by hoffman2k » Sun Mar 06, 2005 5:54 pm

I made an update to my chords and scales collection.
Here's a package with 40 chords and 80 scales.
Install them into the following directory.

MAC OSX:
User / library / Application Support / Ableton / Live 4.1 / UserPresets / chord
User / library / Application Support / Ableton / Live 4.1 / UserPresets / scale

Windows XP:
Documents and Settings / User / Application Data / Ableton / Live 4.1 / UserPresets / chord
Documents and Settings / User / Application Data / Ableton / Live 4.1 / UserPresets / scale
CLICK HERE TO DOWNLOAD
Cheers

-B

Hypomixolydian
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Post by Hypomixolydian » Sun Mar 06, 2005 6:27 pm

Unfortunately, your links don't seem to work.

sweetjesus
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Post by sweetjesus » Sun Mar 06, 2005 6:31 pm

Astral Fridge Magnet wrote:
Unfortunately, your links don't seem to work.
They did in November ... :P

Jbo
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"PianoTuning &Allied Arts" ..Wm B White

Post by Jbo » Sun Mar 06, 2005 6:57 pm

I had to read these first five chapters myself, which I am recomending to answer those wishes expressed in this thread for the desire to understand fundaments
As i was saying i had to "try " to read these 4-5 chapters of this book which cover musical sound creation in all aspects, with the remainder of the book devoted to mechanics of the piano..but the first 1/2 of this book .... IF a person can read it enough times without losing determination to understand even a part of it... and if that person persists, by repeated re-readings and more still, again and again until the person is dismally insane-prone then read it some more.. then after a time has passed read again and this being abot repitition # umpteen million
you can actually expect to start to see what is being said
the nature of a string as it vibrates... and its commonality with a spinning
motor's shaft as that of a vacuum cleaner or aautomobile tranmission
If a person could manage to get himself to TRY and read this book in its first chapters concerning sound and musical postulates and governing mathmatical laws..
even though you are actually NOT understanding the words.... intended use... yet still persisting to read on and re-read again as much as self punishment can be endured in the name of learning knowledge of great depth
I would be overjoyed to learn somebody had actually tried my advice, because its a grueling challenge! but much worthy of the effort
I never tried to google and locate this since I have my brothers hard copy, as it was our dad's who was a tuner by trade.
But I will now to just see how available it is

I was able to locate references to the book and the author


http://www.kenfoster.com/PianoTuning/Why.html

but this reading i mention from the first five chapters might prove elusive without an actual copy of the book .. perhaps not impossible to locate for a tenacious seeker
anyway
Links below are to to my online music with which i am not terribly unhappy except for the evident lack of feedback. i do understand folks but my songs are not that long, so how bout a little help eh?
Image

pc soundcard xphome AbletonLivev4 midikeyboards China Strat..... Garritan vst instruments ........(midi-me)

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