Ableton Forum

Lazos wrote: Maybe there is a M4L patch that can allow Abe's synths to have a finer pitch resolution adjustment? Any M4L programmmers out there to confirm this? Tone Deft? This is different than needing a full-fledged synth retuning program like Lil' Miss Scale Oven or Scala.

hey Lazos.. did you check out the keyboard 'stretch' function on some synths?
like 'tension'..'analog'...etc

also .. I think there are m4l externals that use scala files..and translate the note using the higher resolution provided by the pitch-bend

also try operator oscilator
coarse=0.5 fine=980
should be about right..

Well, thanks a lot for your attention and participation, gentlemen.

@ Rikhyray: Hi, I was relating to Barnim Schultze aka http://www.akashaproject.de/ - What you say is your opinion which I am fine with. Maybe you want to watch one of his videos without having an opinion already. If not - fine, nevermind.

@Lazos: Respect for having a clue, man!

This is accely way more tricky than I first thought - you can't just detune all the frequencies the same amount - it has to be related to the frequenzies octaves. I dont't know yet for sure if that tuning app can do this, but I hope so, it should definetly. Otherwise its crap.

I want this live, definetly.

By the way, the last moths I have been a lot into so called sacred geometry. This is not some kind of fake esoteric bullshit - it's just math.

And: IT'S ABSOLUTELY INCREDIBLE!!





Love and Respect!

3dot... wrote:

Lazos wrote: Maybe there is a M4L patch that can allow Abe's synths to have a finer pitch resolution adjustment? Any M4L programmmers out there to confirm this? Tone Deft? This is different than needing a full-fledged synth retuning program like Lil' Miss Scale Oven or Scala.

hey Lazos.. did you check out the keyboard 'stretch' function on some synths?
like 'tension'..'analog'...etc

also .. I think there are m4l externals that use scala files..and translate the note using the higher resolution provided by the pitch-bend

also try operator oscilator
coarse=0.5 fine=980
should be about right..

Yeah, 3dot, I have Suite, so this is an interesting feature (stretch tuning in Tension and Analog and Collision). It's purpose as I understand it, is to accommodate for the deviation between the theoretical and actual harmonic content and relationship between strings in mainly real and emulated string sounds from synths, pianos and other keyboard instruments. I noticed that if I have a Tension sound with really stiff and thick emulation of strings, stretch tuning helps me accommodate for some of those stranger harmonics clashing when playing notes together. So, it's not really useful for the OP's issue. Good feature, though.

With the advent of M4L, I doubt Ableton will bother with having the Suite instruments actually load .tun or scala files. It really would be nice, though

Obviously the Frequency Shifter is not appropriate either.

We just need (Abe's are you listening?) the Pitch midi effect to have a finer resolution for tuning the reference frequency of synths! I don't really feel like paying $300 for M4L for this functionality!

If one wants to delve into more involved stuff like tuning to experimental, Turkish, Arabic, or Indian scales, et. al., you need Scala, M4L, Lil' Miss Scale Oven, or something similar.

Aeroplay wrote: @ Rikhyray: Hi, I was relating to Barnim Schultze aka http://www.akashaproject.de/ - What you say is your opinion which I am fine with.

No, it is not my opinion but the facts about Indian music (that is where I come from, performing Indian classical music was my first profession). Had a look at that website, there is no relation to actual Indian music system, only new age fantasies.

rikhyray wrote: that is where I come from, performing Indian classical music was my first profession

!!!!RESPECT!!!!

3dot... wrote:

rikhyray wrote: that is where I come from, performing Indian classical music was my first profession

!!!!RESPECT!!!!

Yea, respect!
I'm happy to learn anything about other musical cultures and at the same time all this pseudo-"ethno"-"world music"-stuff gives me the dry heaves, which makes learning hard sometimes - 'cause when I ask around "hey, anybody know anything about Indian music" or something there's always the people shouting "My house tracks with Sitar, let me show you them!". And they're usually the loudest.

MPGK wrote:

3dot... wrote:

rikhyray wrote: that is where I come from, performing Indian classical music was my first profession

!!!!RESPECT!!!!

Yea, respect! :)
I'm happy to learn anything about other musical cultures and at the same time all this pseudo-"ethno"-"world music"-stuff gives me the dry heaves, which makes learning hard sometimes - 'cause when I ask around "hey, anybody know anything about Indian music" or something there's always the people shouting "My house tracks with Sitar, let me show you them!". And they're usually the loudest. :|

Will be my pleasure to answer any questions, as good as I can. I studied north Indian music, so called Hindustani-Sarod (fretless lute kind of instrument) for 12-15 years , 8- 12 hours daily practice,and classes with various masters but my final and "official" Guru was Ustad Amjad Ali Khan Later followed with solo performer career. After some years started what we call "fusion" (mix of Indian and Western music)and since I worked with South Indians (aka Carnatic) musicians , moved to Madras and while there studied South Indian percussion and composition. It was more to understand the language of my fellow artists, just to learn one of those systems is lifetime job. I am Hindustani musician with some knowledge of Carnatic only.
Another thing is essential difference in intonation (mainly using it in embelishments) and once absorbed it is impossible to change. Trained Hindustani musician will never play really Carnatic way and vice versa.
The intonation and ear training are the very essence and base. We spend enormous amount of time learning it.I was already performing and had some credits when I was accepted by my Guru and felt frustrated and humilated when I had to play only scales up and down at 40 or less to max 60 BPM over 8 hours daily for a week. Later understood how great Guru blessing that was.
So indeed the microtonics, intonation are the "secret", how the musical intensity is applied but nothing to do with some fake scientific speculations , "Cosmic sounds", "Earth tones" etc,etc.
How could it be translated to electronic instruments? Since it is all about "hearing" and in the mind- hands only follow artists intention, just tuning is only part, because it is (at least in Indian music) intonation applied in musical time. The practice is to coordinate the musical intention of the mind with your motoric skill and creation of emotional reponse of the listener ( not that different from what BB King would do). Good control over pitch band is far more important then only some kind of alternative tuning
P.S. indeed most of that "world" music/fx /sounds are irritating. Like the bloody Fugees, should have paid someone to tune the Sitar but result is million records sold few few stupid notes half of them out of tune.

rikhyray wrote:Will be my pleasure to answer any questions, as good as I can. I studied north Indian music, so called Hindustani-Sarod (fretless lute kind of instrument) for 12-15 years , 8- 12 hours daily practice,and classes with various masters but my final and "official" Guru was Ustad Amjad Ali Khan Later followed with solo performer career. After some years started what we call "fusion" (mix of Indian and Western music)and since I worked with South Indians (aka Carnatic) musicians , moved to Madras and while there studied South Indian percussion and composition. It was more to understand the language of my fellow artists, just to learn one of those systems is lifetime job. I am Hindustani musician with some knowledge of Carnatic only.
Another thing is essential difference in intonation (mainly using it in embelishments) and once absorbed it is impossible to change. Trained Hindustani musician will never play really Carnatic way and vice versa.
The intonation and ear training are the very essence and base. We spend enormous amount of time learning it.I was already performing and had some credits when I was accepted by my Guru and felt frustrated and humilated when I had to play only scales up and down at 40 or less to max 60 BPM over 8 hours daily for a week. Later understood how great Guru blessing that was.
So indeed the microtonics, intonation are the "secret", how the musical intensity is applied but nothing to do with some fake scientific speculations , "Cosmic sounds", "Earth tones" etc,etc.
How could it be translated to electronic instruments? Since it is all about "hearing" and in the mind- hands only follow artists intention, just tuning is only part, because it is (at least in Indian music) intonation applied in musical time. The practice is to coordinate the musical intention of the mind with your motoric skill and creation of emotional reponse of the listener ( not that different from what BB King would do). Good control over pitch band is far more important then only some kind of alternative tuning

Fascinating. I've heard you have to be very specialized when performing Indian music. Do you have problems "switching" over to Western music and the tonal system used there?
I know the comparison is flawed, but after I practiced playing jazz piano from sheets the last few years I'm having a hard time playing plain triads when accompanying plain pop songs as my fingers automatically hit the matching tensions.

Yes, exactly same thing. Playing, even listening much to other than your main style of music, might "ruin" your main style. Our Gurus are so strict that in formative years we are forbidden not only to play but even listening to not just something else but even same Indian music, instrument but of another "school" style. It is not some fanaticism but important to first form, define your command over the instrument and music style. later you wont loose it even if you want to.,
Once I started to get more serious about the "fusing", took seriously to study Western music,in my case Berklee system, first guitar, later jazz piano. Soon realised that instruments like Sitar or Sarod were developed for classical music and for all sorts of reason are the biggest limitation developing the "Fusion". Guitar wasnt solution either, it was helpful that John mcLaughlin gave me his "shakti" guitars which worked to some extent but mainly helped me to develop new instrument. Together with Kaman/Ovation R&D we worked for about a year and created Vajra vina which let me switch from one music to the other in a blink. Can be played like western instrument-chords etc just like guitar and also like "Saraswati vina".

^^^not fretted I presume..
in any case.. do you have any pics or audio files of it ?
it's probably acoustic ?

No, Vajra vina is fretted just like Saraswati vina but this way even more difficult as fretless instruments, you have to judge the pitch by pressure you feel on your finger, takes much more time to get to feel it.
here is my Guru Ustad Amjad Ali Khan playing the Sarod
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kwE-G0CFgtg

rikhyray wrote:

Aeroplay wrote: @ Rikhyray: Hi, I was relating to Barnim Schultze aka http://www.akashaproject.de/ - What you say is your opinion which I am fine with.

No, it is not my opinion but the facts about Indian music (that is where I come from, performing Indian classical music was my first profession). Had a look at that website, there is no relation to actual Indian music system, only new age fantasies.

Hey man,


it was an other frequenzy, my bad, here we go:

http://www.akashaproject.de/htmlen/prac ... ja_en.html

Is this false also?

"Your opinion" wasn't aiming so much towards the indian-music-thing. But it's not so important. I am not talking about any "new age fanatsies" here. This is math. Who claims to know, what kind of effect it exactly has, when you choose frequencies related to nature instead of just some random ones? Don't be fooled by the the "esoteric" surrounding. Meditation is also of great benefit. So why be single-minded?

Greetings

No point even commenting, ability to eat or cook does not make me pizza baker or having 2 legs a dancer, forget it. These people are fraud, aimed at exploiting the innocent.

edit : never mind

Hi Aeroplay,

How was your quest for the 443? did you get anywhere??

Thanks