Ableton Forum

i've got a start on javascript, php, and sql, and although they aren't really languages, CSS, xhtml 1.0 rounds out the list of things i've learned. i have a few books to go deeper on a few other things, 2 on ruby on rails (though 1 and 1 whom i use for hosting does not support it, so i might not learn it soon), and a book on xml, though i think before i do that i'm going to learn more about jquery.

so with programming languages, do you use a separate language to develop the functionality from the interface? just trying to get my mind around all this.

gurumonkey wrote: so with programming languages, do you use a separate language to develop the functionality from the interface? just trying to get my mind around all this.

Many applications that are developed for the Mac use a separate language for the interface versus the functionality. At the end of the day, interfaces for the current Mac OS must be in Objective-C, although they have tools for building interfaces without doing much of any programming at the level of a textual programming language. The functionality can be in most any programming language you want, so long as you can link it to the interface code and make calls back and forth. This separation is natural; among other things, its best to keep the user interface light and responsive, and to leave the heavy lifting to another task. That way the user can cancel operations, monitor their progress, maybe even do one thing while another is going on, etc.

If you are going to work on either the MS or the Mac platform in their native development environments, you can't go wrong by starting to learn C. It's the basis for C#, C++, and Objective-C, and a huge number of OS interfaces are in C.

XCode is a big download -- I forget offhand but it's hundreds of megabytes anyway. It's on the install disk of any recent Mac, as an optional install, although that version will be out of date unless it's a very new Mac.

-Luddy

gurumonkey wrote:i've got a start on javascript, php, and sql, and although they aren't really languages, CSS, xhtml 1.0 rounds out the list of things i've learned. i have a few books to go deeper on a few other things, 2 on ruby on rails (though 1 and 1 whom i use for hosting does not support it, so i might not learn it soon), and a book on xml, though i think before i do that i'm going to learn more about jquery.

so with programming languages, do you use a separate language to develop the functionality from the interface? just trying to get my mind around all this.

In a web-based application, you might use a different language for "back end" and "front end", but in standalone apps you don't use a separate language-- there are 'building blocks' for GUI elements, in the "C" languages these are platform specific and if you buy a dev tool (like Visuall C++) the use of these is faciliated, but the building blocks are in the same language.

Based on what you know now, you should start to learn Java, I think.

is C something i need to buy? is learning C just learning something archaic? could i just learn those basics by learning one of the other languges?

gurumonkey wrote:is C something i need to buy? is learning C just learning something archaic? could i just learn those basics by learning one of the other languges?

no. no. yes.

A C implementation is available with the XCode dev kit which is free. You can compile C programs from the command line, using gcc, which will be installed when you install XCode, or you can compile C programs in XCode itself, using its built-in build tools.

C and its variants -- C++, C#, and Objective-C -- are the most widely used system programming languages by a long shot, on all systems. All the hard-core stuff in Windows, Mac OS X, Linux, Solaris, AIX, and all other variants of Unix, use C for their core interfaces. It's an old language and it is somewhat primitive compared to more modern languages, but it's not at all archaic in terms of current applicability and real-world use.

You can learn the basics of programming in many different programming languages. Fortran, Basic, Lisp, Smalltalk, C, Pascal, Java, assembly language, on and on and on. Once you start learning programming languages it becomes easier and easier to learn new ones. You have to start somewhere. It's not terribly important where you start, but you might as well pick something that will be immediately useful for what you want to do. If you want to write native interfaces for Windows or Mac OS X, you don't have much choice but to learn at least C and probably one of its major variants. If you just want to write some scripts or say web server stuff, C would probably not be a good choice.

hth,

-Luddy

Ed J wrote:

vicz wrote:

Ed J wrote:
Why restrict yourself to proprietary Microsoft languages and protocols? Especially C#, MS Java me-too.

Java is currently massively out of date (no functions as first-class objects, which means no functional-style programming or lambdas. that sucks big fat donkey balls), C# was originally a Java-a-like, but now it's much, *much* better.

Just cus Microsoft are a big corporate set of bellends doesn't mean they have the best framework and language tools.
Also, Sun are WAY more evil than microsoft, it's just that they're less obvious about it.

Flame wars are pointless: I suggested C# cus it's a very powerful language that's well supported on sites like StackOverflow and has a good set of standards and free downloady stuff, which makes it easy to pick up. If you want to suggest something else and justify it with some actual information as opposed to shameless fanboi/anti-m$/whatever-ism the go ahead, it'll be good if the OP can get a feel of the level of support for a language.

This link really answers the OP question http://www.tiobe.com/index.php/content/ ... index.html but the answer really depends on what you want to do. Lots of people jumping on the iPhone and Android bandwagons, you could always download the SDK and jump in, in which case Objective-C is the way to go. Its J2EE which makes java so commercially important, hence my original recommendation for 'marketability'. RoR/Ajax is up-and-coming for web based development, eg Twitter. MS Dev tools have improved a lot but it is still difficult to maintain a coherent set of working product versions across different Windows and runtime versions, especially for free.

BTW: Sun are now part of Oracle of course, and Larry Ellison makes Scott McNealy look like a choirboy.

another huge plus for beginners starting with c# vs Apples objective C is just the massive amount of sample code and tutorials available for C#. I work with both and the difference in cool free stuff you can learn and get for free for C# is staggering. The apple dev forums are a wasteland comparatively... i.e. if you get stuck you will have a MUCH easier time figuring out wtf you are doing wrong with C#.

isnt there a drag n drop programing language out there yet?
what if some one just wants to piss around and add bits from one mini program to another to create something?

something like max msp but with better explanation and filing of the devices.

http://www.break.com/index/microsoft-vs ... ailer.html

ahahahah^^

-awesome- movie! and probably even the right choice for you!

nikulo wrote:http://www.break.com/index/microsoft-vs ... ailer.html

ahahahah^^

-awesome- movie! and probably even the right choice for you!

Ha ha I really wasn't trying to start a flame war but someone has put a shit load of work into this. And 2:42 is just like my office on work-at-home days.

nathannn wrote:isnt there a drag n drop programing language out there yet?
what if some one just wants to piss around and add bits from one mini program to another to create something?

something like max msp but with better explanation and filing of the devices.

Both C# and Objective C have 'drag and drop' to them. You can drop most/all the visible stuff you want on screen, then do the 'wiring' for it in code. In plain C, C++, there is zero drag and drop, it's allllll code.