Ableton Forum

-1

? love Live's arrangement page and I also use ProTools and DigitalPerformer... LIVE LIVE LIVE

it certainly isn't great, but i've learned to live with it for now.

agree with everything u say...looking at anything in arrangement view is a complete mess...and i have to add how terrible the shortcuts are for arranging!!! seriously....where is the german efficiency in those???? On my mac to zoom is minus and shift + .... SHIFT FREAKIN + how stupid is that??? why is almost everything command option alphabet??? Why cant we make custom shortcuts?? And please oh please have a quick render audio to new track...not with live 9 but right now!!!!!

Also im FOREVER opening closing resizing windows... WHY????

Ableton please take a look at reaper and learn!!!

x0b wrote:it certainly isn't great, but i've learned to live with it for now.

^

Agree with all the points above. I usually work in arrangement view and it could definitely be made easier.

As per the fact there's no proper mixer in arrangement view though, I press "tab" in arrangement view and it toggles the lovely mixer view on and off!

0fps wrote:

Pitch Black wrote:

mholloway wrote:I know it's not just me. It can't be.

Its not, another hadcore fanboi here who feels the same way. I agree with all you've said above. My pet hate is WHY can't I toggle automation envelopes visible/invisible for all tracks with a single keystroke, let alone a single operation. Select all tracks then fiddle about getting the "none" option to appear.... arrrrgh!

So off-putting for me... whatever you're doing, if you just want to hide automation for a second, you have to go way off-task and pay attention to all these different tracks and parameters.

U can hide and show automation selector and envelopes at the arrangement view, simultaneously at all tracks by pressing alt + click on a show/hide button.

Thanks 0fps, I wasn't aware of that. However, while this does indeed hide the automation from view, it also closes the tracks, making the clip waveforms invisible. I would dearly like a way to keep the clip waveforms in view and "toggle" automation envelopes visible/invisible with a keystroke.

Cheers ShelLuser. Alt doesn't work, so I have to select all tracks and choose None. A keystroke would be much more convinient.

ShelLuser wrote:

Pitch Black wrote:However, while this does indeed hide the automation from view, it also closes the tracks, making the clip waveforms invisible.

Then you're not doing it correctly

Select all tracks, then hide the automation for a single track as you always do and then all tracks will stop displaying it. AFAIK you should press alt while hiding but with 8.1.5 it seems to work fine without it.

Edit: just in case; SO I'm referring to clicking on the dropdown menu; the fades/devices box.

I think we're talking about slightly a different thing here, 0fps is talking about opening/unfolding the tracks all at once, which does indeed hide the waveforms, but we're talking about hiding/showing the automation envelopes.

Consider the workflow in the above:
Select all tracks, then hide the automation for a single track as you always do and then all tracks will stop displaying it.

I would do:

click on a track header <so that a track becomes the current selection>
command-A <to select all tracks>
use the Device Chooser and Control Chooser menus to navigate to "none" <after 3 or 4 moves I've made the automation disappear>

Is there a way to do this in less moves that I'm missing?

In Logic, I have it set as a key-command; "v"

I would really like to see a simple keystroke combo for this - since Live has to keep all the individual QWERTY keys free for user assignment, it would need to be a combo... Command-Option-E (for Envelopes) is free AFAIK.

I've taken to doing all my arrangement work in the arrangement view in Live, after years of working in Logic. I make pretty complex arrangements I think; I do quite a bit of pop production with lots of tracks. There are annoying things about both Logic's and Live's arrangement views from my point of view. I find it a real nuisance to have to deal with so many tool types in Logic to accomplish simple things. I think the grid works much better, is much more flexible in Live than in Logic. I prefer detailed audio editing in Live. (I know lots of other producers, some of them quite well-known, use Logic's arrangement view and do a ton of detailed editing there.) I wish that bounce-in-place were as simple in Live as in Logic; freezing and rendering in Live just aren't the same, and freezing in particular has too many limitations. Track grouping is about 100x more useful in Live than in Logic, no comparison there. I really like having session view available as a holding area for alternate versions of a section; that's such a pain to manage on a single timeline. Also, the fact that you can drag tracks individually or in clumps into the browser is a big help when working on a complicated arrangement, to keep the arrangement area itself clean. Sometimes I miss having multiple windows, but on the other hand I find that navigating around the timeline and zooming is generally much faster in Live than in Logic.

Neither one is perfect and it's a matter of taste, but I don't think it's the case that Live's arrangement view makes it impossible to do complex arrangements, far from it.

-Luddy

@ShelLuser

Your example is a case where you're talking about the alleged silliness of wanting additional functionality in something not designed to do that in the first place (e.g. Operator or Thor), which I normally would agree with; but regarding Arrangement View I think from my original post it's clear that I'm wanting better implementation of the functionality that is already there; I don't want more bells and whistles or add-ons.

And as for the "single horse" thing, this is a DAW, so it seems natural to me to want better implementation of DAW-specific functions within that single program. Looking elsewhere in this case would mean a multi-DAW approach to songwriting/mixing, which I am not interested in at all, as it's an absolute workflow killer for me.

-M

mholloway wrote:And as for the "single horse" thing, this is a DAW, so it seems natural to me to want better implementation of DAW-specific functions within that single program. Looking elsewhere in this case would mean a multi-DAW approach to songwriting/mixing, which I am not interested in at all, as it's an absolute workflow killer for me.

+1

Most items mentioned so far shouldn't require an overhaul. Just some workflow enhancements to what is (in a way) already there.

It really is a big pile of shit isn't it.

I don't know if anyone has noticed but, the arrangement view really hasn't changed at all, since about version 3 or 4. Don't know how they can keep slipping that one past us.

I must agree. I love live and migrated actually from mackie tracktion 3. And to be honest, it was a bit painful. All I use is arrange mode, and I think that a LOT could be learned from the tracktion interface. Seriously. Hell, in the VERY LEAST, give me a legit mousescroll zoom damn it.

Ffs.

Love live either way.

RonC

Arrangent view is really the least of my concerns.

It works very well for me when it comes to just arranging.

A few weeks back Ableton(Huston S. and a few other Abe's)invited several recording industry professionals to a get together in Brooklyn.
From what I gather, they focused on the Arrangement/Live Instrument recording side of Live and got some feedback as to different workflows that they are using.

Sounds like the Abe's are really trying to get to that next level in All-in-One DAW.

Time will tell.......