Bass/kick relationship

[Khazul]

Instead fo a dynEQ is is actually possible to construct a fairly decent fx rack to do frequency specific sidechain compression (combination of single channel EQ8 notch filter, utilty plugin for for phase reversal summing to create the internal selected frequency and other frequencies signal paths then just stick the compressor on the selected frequency path.

...and if you don't mind EQ3 coloration this can be really simple. Feed your bass into two tracks, throw EQ3 on both of them, cut the low on one and the mid/hi on the other, then duck the low track to the kick with sidechain compression. I'd actually never considered doing this (I normally duck the entire bass) but now I'm tempted to try, either by this method or Khazul's (which, although more complex, will certainly sound better). Thanks for the idea, simpli.cissimus!
-Hamish

You dont ever notice the coloration as a the way I split an combine in a rack is by inverse summing with a signal that has had a sever cuit applied (rather than band boost which can add resonance), so really it allmost doesnt matter how shit the band cut filter/eq - the reality is you hardly notice it except at best when the sidechain signal is driven over the compressor threshold.

You cant do this with two EQ doing opposite things for the simple reason is that they do not generally sum correctly - the cut response in frequency and time domain is nearly allways different to the boost response. (Shame you cant attach stuff so I could post the rack made to illustrate) the method but its basically as follows:

Split a signal, appply a signal band noth filter in EQ8 (switch otehr bands off).
Split the output, such that one path is passed through a phase inverter (utility with both L and R phase invert on).
Now sum this inverted notched signal with the original - the end result is a perfect inverse notch - ie a resonance free band pass response that you can make extremely narrow without it resonating.
Now feed the output of the sum through the compressor.
The output of the compressor must now be summed with the original output of the EQ notch filter.
When the compressor ratio is at 1:1, then the signal should be unchanged - ie truly transparent - you may even be able to do a futher cancellatin ttest on the output of this to verify it, though I havnt.

Now apply another siginal to the sidechain of the compressor, tune the notch filter freq and Q to taste and if required use the sidechain EQ on the compressor and tune that to get the compressor response you want.

End result - a band limited compressor as good as your likely to get from a very very expensive dynamic EQ plugin.

And again an huge shame M4L doesnt support sidechained plugins as this would be a really useful and trivial audio plugin to make in M4L (trivial enough and useful enough to be a minimal feature addition to the existing compressor for L9.

TBH - the end result is for reducing bass/sub-bass mud rather than actually pumping your bassline. I tend to prefer to use it the other way around as well - ie make the lower frequencies of the bass duck the low frequencies of the kick, and then use the pre fx kick to pump the baseline. he former tend to reduce clutter and make the low end of the bass more melodic rather than monotone (due to the kick's tail), while the pumping of the bassline from the kick gives you the groove back. Works great with soft fundamental bass sounds combined with an 808 kick (as common in tech house, deep house etc and a nightmare to mnix as they both have most of the energy in the same frequencies and little attack enegy to descriminate them) as it enhances the melodic content of a bass more making the whole mix more musical IMHO.

[docprosper]

Thanks for the details! I was aware of the concept but was about to start searching the forum for these; I know i've seen some of this info before here. Really kind of you to lay it all out, cheers!
Hamish

[anybody human]

One thing I like to do first is deal with frequency masking. You can use EQ 8 and Spectrum together, I happen to use Fabfilter Pro Q but an inexpensive, excellent alternative is DDMF IIEQ Pro which also has a built in spectrum analyzer.
http://www.ddmf.eu/product.php?id=0

Whatever you use: Find the fundamental frequency of the kick (somewhere around 50hz usually), boost it a bit and then use a high pass filter to cut everything below that, leaving the sub bass area free for the bass to occupy. Then go to the bass and cut where you boosted the kick. Now find the fundamental frequency of the bass (often 140-160hz but it can vary) - don't boost it, instead go back to the kick and cut that frequency. Now you've boosted the kick's fundamental and notched the bass fundamental out of the kick, and you've notched the kick's fundamental out of the bass.

Here's a tutorial that explains is better than I can:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kSNYBbPAvKE

[evon]

One thing I like to do first is deal with frequency masking. You can use EQ 8 and Spectrum together, I happen to use Fabfilter Pro Q but an inexpensive, excellent alternative is DDMF IIEQ Pro which also has a built in spectrum analyzer.
http://www.ddmf.eu/product.php?id=0

Whatever you use: Find the fundamental frequency of the kick (somewhere around 50hz usually), boost it a bit and then use a high pass filter to cut everything below that, leaving the sub bass area free for the bass to occupy. Then go to the bass and cut where you boosted the kick. Now find the fundamental frequency of the bass (often 140-160hz but it can vary) - don't boost it, instead go back to the kick and cut that frequency. Now you've boosted the kick's fundamental and notched the bass fundamental out of the kick, and you've notched the kick's fundamental out of the bass.

Here's a tutorial that explains is better than I can:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kSNYBbPAvKE

And after all of that you are still not getting the sound you were after. I do believe it is not that simple. Sometimes it seems that whatever we try it just comes down to luck.

[Moody]

Unless you are using the same kick and bass in every track then this is obviously a diffulct question to answer with out some examples, but another way to think about it is where do you want the punch to come from.

[YILA]

The rule is there is no rule.

Sometimes your kick might be punchy and your bass subby.

Sometimes your kick subby and your bass punchy.

I actually love eq8, I use it more than all my powercore EQ's now, because it's accurate and characterless, I don't want my EQ adding anything (Like Eq3 does) and if you want to get anal, use Ableton's frequency graph to see any frequencies popping right up (Although use your ears first)

Blah blah etc etc.

Oh and side-chain sometimes, but never so it's audible like all French electro.