Ableton Forum

Legend has it that propper use leads to complete enlightenment.

Sooo true!

II V I
Flat 5 substitution....

You take the V chord, and get it's b5, thus creating a "secondary dominant"....

II bII I
A chromatic progression where the bII is in most respects the same as
the V chord.

II V I
D G C

II minor 7th
D F A C

V 7th
G B D F

I Major 7th
C E G B

Now look at bII 7th

bII 7th
Db F Ab B

G7th has F and B... so does Db 7th.... close enuff to use in it's place....

You can look into this further but basically in every resolving chord
progression you'll find semi-tone movements between the chords... Their
root might be totally different, but the 3rd of one might be a semi-tone
from the 5th of another. This is why tunes like "Air on a G-String" sound
so balanced, it's always moving in 5ths and between each chord there are
several semi-tone movements... The instrumentation can make this more
obvious which is why some of the older classical tunes are good
examples... Specially when you have one instrument simply coming down
the chromatic scale with others picking up the notes of the chords which
move around more.

So without going into tooo much detail.... there is a relationship between
flat 5ths and semi-tones... and thus every chord progression....

Take it a step further...... You can use a process called "plurals" but I
never really "got it" so instead came at it this way....

Combine the chords above....

C Db D E F G Ab A B

Gives us a few more notes which relate to C Major yet aren't in the actual
scale, modes, harmonisation or whatever...

Now lets make the bII 7th from the last substitution our new V chord...

II V I
Ab Db Gb

II minor 7th
Ab B Eb Gb

V 7th
Db F Ab B

I Major 7th
Gb Bb Db F

Giving us....

Db Eb F Gb Ab Bb B
+
C Db D E F G Ab A B
=
C Db D Eb E F Gb G Ab A Bb B
Chormatic scale...... Now we have a way to include every single note in C
Major and feel good about it..... "Play what you feel!"

Lets have a look what happens if instead of using Db 7th as the new V
chord we instead use it as the new key (I chord Maj7th)...

II V I
Eb Ab Db

II minor 7th
Eb Gb Bb Db

V 7th
Ab C Eb Gb

I Major 7th
Db F Ab C (C was B in dom)

C Db Eb F Gb Ab Bb
+
C Db D E F G Ab A B (our original sub)
=
C Db D Eb E F Gb G Ab A Bb B
Damn what ya know.... Chromatic again....

So lets now try to skim it down a little, chormatic is great, but we need
something with gaps in it so we can use it....

Now if only I can remember how I derived Altered Scale from flat 5th subs....

-Ben

bah for the life of me I can't work it out again....
It was one of those "eureka!" moments...
once I worked it out I forgot the method

Basically.... you end up with altered scale...

(C) Db D E F G Ab Bb B (C) Db
S T S T S T S T

STSTSTST... a symetrical scale.... A diminished scale...
contains lots of minor 3rds...

Now inplace of G 7th V chord you can use chords on any of those notes
and for all intents and purposes they will spell some element of a V
dominant 7th chord... You could play....
D Minor 7th -> E Major 7th -> C Major 7th...
or
D Minor 7th -> E 7th -> C Major 7th...
or
D Minor 7th -> Ab Major 7th -> C Major 7th...
or
D Minor 7th -> Bb Major 7th -> B 7th -> Ab Major 7th -> G 7th -> C Major 7th...

or whatever.... it'll all say "G V chord"...

So at the end of the day.... you come to realise that everything is within
the "rules".... anything goes.... You can relate it all back in some way...

So why bother with the theory? Well I might choose to use E Major 7th
instead of G 7th.... Having made that choice, and knowing why it works,
I'm in a good position to use scales in the melody which will better
highlight that choice and really bring it out as something "special".

It really comes into it's own in composition..... but is handy for selecting
notes for improv too. However at the end of the day... You realise that
this is what you've been doing all along and you just didn't have words to
describe it... A good ear plays all this stuff anyway....

Probably not the best place for all this
but I needed the revision so what the hey....
Now if only I can remember how to use multiple b5 subs to derive altered scale.

-Ben

much appreciated, ben!

with my limited theoretical knowledge, it'll take some time to wade through, but it's exactly what i'm looking for at the moment!

thanks, mrY

A bit bewildering, i'm sure, Quaker. In short, knowing music theory will make many things much easier, and its actually quite fascinating. Truly the system of music we inherit is a divine gift! Always remember that music comes first; theory just describes what often happens in music, but there's no need to reinvent the wheel. For dance music, learning how rhythm works is essential, and thats something you're not going to learn a lot of by studying western music theory. My advice is to experiment and try to learn systematically. Listen to how the rhythms work in your favorite tracks and try and duplicate. Eventually you'll come up with your own understanding and be able to easily see where sounds should go on the grid to get the effect you want. Understanding melodic and harmonic theory is a little more diffficult, but just take it slow. Check out some online sites, or better yet, have a friend who knows show you some basic stuff. Most music relies on a very few simple rules. The main thing is to use your ears, and keep learning. Music is a lifelong pursuit, so don't get overwhelmed. Just pick up what you can, ask for guidance, and have fun!! Sing a new song!

A bit bewildering

Yeah thanx for putting it back in perspective....

Just saw an opportunity to do a brain-dump, more for my own benefit
then anyone elses By no means am I saying "this is what you need to
learn Quaker".... That being said... If you're interested, harmonisation is
a good place to head after getting the basics...

Should I tidy this crap up and start a thread for lessons u think?
Putting it all out on the table has got me thinking.....

-Ben

MrYellow wrote: Should I tidy this crap up and start a thread for lessons u think?
Putting it all out on the table has got me thinking.....

-Ben

Please do! I know I am on this forum everyday, and playing keys and guitar every day, so why aren't I polishing my theory everyday? If you started a thread with a breif theory "lesson" post every day, I would be willing to bet the response would be HUGE!

Great idea! Go for it! I'm sure we could all learn a lot!

Ahhhh, yet another music theory post.





Remember when classical pianists saw Monk for the first time????




only do. don't make anything.




-lm

ethios, that was a really beautiful post. very wise words. i hope quacker finds it down there.




btw yellow, i read through all your posts...

This will give you every single Beatles song ever written

...but i still can't figure out revolution 9. am i dumb?

Remember when classical pianists saw Monk for the first time????

There was a good one where he sat at the piano for 3 hours straight,
most ppl left.... then he played 1 note, bowed, and walked off.

The Ultimate in Tension/Resolution

...but i still can't figure out revolution 9. am i dumb?

There's a explaination of how it was done and stuff in that "DJ Food 20th century" thingy.

-Ben

well what a response, i am very impressed by the time and effort put in to answering my question! most of that theory has gone over my head at seven million kilometers an hour, but the simple advice has given me some ideas, when i complete my first song shall i give everyone a listen?

Should I tidy this crap up and start a thread for lessons u think?
Putting it all out on the table has got me thinking.....

Would appreciate!
Good old sharing.

Good night tune, trying to start the MrY tutorial by myself but...
http://bluemoose.greatnow.com/Div/harmo_night.mp3

// C