Ableton Forum

Good post. Period.
// C

Bump
D2 is on the money there, should be a solicitor

Yes, this is very true, but it was not in response to such obviously and laughably rediculous questions and subsequent RTFM's that made me originally post the thread. It was others.

And I'm also guessing that 95% of those rediculous questions are from people who did not legally aquire the software. (which, in turn would be lessened by a reg-only forum) and some of those threads are so off-the-wall that its almost a joke, and is almost always from someone with just a few posts. (And it's not like you're letting people like that in on some big secret by telling them to read the manual. If anything it's just troll-bate.)

For I've found it one of the most exciting things IS reading through the manual. Especially the Live one. So well written (and the built-in bookmark? genius!). Anyone who owns the software almost certainly went through it at least once. It's like candy.

and even though the Live manual is well written, sometimes it takes someone phrasing something a little different for it to click for someone else. Hence the forums.

simon wrote:
If you don't have anything nice to say, don't say anything at all

Cool, I was just looking at another thread a moment ago, and was thinking that I wish more people would go by that adage, and now I read your post. One of those nice coincidences.

Just felt inclined to comment because I've hardly been visiting recently, and I've always felt like this forum has been a really cool one, the only one i have any time for, but it seems that on any forum there is a tendency towards trivial bickering, that gets tiresome. It's not that hard to be courteous to people or ignore them!

I think it can also be a good idea to re-read what one has written to see if it could come across wrong, it's easy to offend when there's no intonation or expression that you'd have in a normal conversation. I mean we even write in the same FONT, how un-individual is that?!

D2, yes that is a convincingly expressed argument and I agree to a point, but you do run the risk of taking all your cumulative frustration out on the next person who asks you the time - when no single person is repeatedly asking this of you, it is a different person each time and you should remember that you don't have to say ANYTHING, it's not directed at you.

You can:
- help
- choose not to say anything
- diss the shit out of the guy

The third option seems the most pointless and I see in another thread that this was the option that you and others took, and as an onlooker I thought it came across a bit heavy-handed.

So yeah, I tend to go with the If you don't have anything nice to say, don't say anything at all approach - it's certainly the quickest!

Beats n Peace

It's not that hard to be courteous to people or ignore them!

agreed, but it's also not hard to RTFM or STFF before you ask questions.
if people don't even bother, why should we?

i think if someone starts with: "i've searched the fucking manual and the fucking forum, but i couldn't find the answer to the next question", he would get a lot less RTFM's and STFF's...

Moonburnt wrote:Cool, I was just looking at another thread a moment ago...

heh, we must have stumbled over the same thread here, and was going to say just the same thing to d2.

there's two reasons why this forum isn't that ok anymore... and it's dual.
threads go to the second page to quick because of too obvious questions, and the whining shit kickers keep it at the top. and yes please, ableton. this is definitely not a good forum lay-out.
only four active subfora is just not enough.

i think you'll make someone understand he needs to do a decent search (in whatever medium) much better when you direct him to a page of the manual or a specific thread and only then tell him to read the manual (it's a book or computer file. as far as i know, these things can't even fuck). if you can whine about 'how easy that is', you can do it yourself as well.

but it's too late for me now. i had my say.

Moonburnt wrote:D2, yes that is a convincingly expressed argument and I agree to a point, but you do run the risk of taking all your cumulative frustration out on the next person who asks you the time - when no single person is repeatedly asking this of you, it is a different person each time and you should remember that you don't have to say ANYTHING, it's not directed at you.

All anologies are by their very nature imperfect beyond the principle or point they are intended to convey. My "clueless watch-wearer" anaology is no different.

One major point of the analogy was the notion of recognizing that the watch-wearer had everything available to him necessary to answer his own question ... but out of purposeful laziness, indifference and stupidity chose not to do so. In part this is because of this kind of person's attitude that others exist for the purpose of serving his needs.

If you drop the context of the person actually having his own watch, and the means to learn how to use it (which is the rough equivalent of having the software and manual right in front of you), then the analogy no longer holds.

But that's exactly the kind of context-dropping you are engaging in when you assume that every new person asking a stupid question clearly answered in the manual is worthy of "the benefit of the doubt".

The almost universal observation you can make is that those who start by asking stupid questions and getting easy answers continue to ask stupid questions. Eventually they end up being given RTFMs or blown off anyway ... does the delay of the inevitable somehow make for a better forum? Who does this benefit exactly? (Especially when it can't even be argued that newcomers of this type can be counted upon to search and see if their question has already been answered)

Another analogy serves to some extent: African tribes learned long ago that it was best to kill any orphaned lion cubs ... not to adopt them and try to raise them!

Moonburnt wrote:You can:
- help
- choose not to say anything
- diss the shit out of the guy

The third option seems the most pointless and I see in another thread that this was the option that you and others took, and as an onlooker I thought it came across a bit heavy-handed.

I think you are too quick to enagage in in a "false dilemna" set of choices with a narrow range of perceived benefits.

Telling someone to Read The Fine Manual may in fact be "helping" him, if it serves notice that people are expected (as they should be) to help themselves when it is possible and reasonable for them to do so. It also helps everyone else. It is hardly "dissing" anyone.

Choosing not to say (or do) anything may certainly be the easiest option, but what about it makes it especially virtuous or helpful to anyone?

You'll also find a few interesting bits of phenomema which dovetail nicely with my case:

The "clueless watch-wearers" are almost universally much quicker to "diss" others at the slightest hint of any real or imagined slight, than those "dissing" them.

Most of the people making the "if you can't say anything nice" or "hey that's rude" defenses of these leeches hardly ever offer any assistance of their own. Their sole purpose seems to be to tell others how they should behave when giving out advice. Wouldn't a better response be to lead by example, showing the wisdom of their (supposed) infinite patience in dealing with those who use them like intellectual slaves?

PUSSIES!


sorry, just had to say it.



-lm

d2 wrote:Choosing not to say (or do) anything may certainly be the easiest option, but what about it makes it especially virtuous or helpful to anyone?

Nothing. I don't think that virtue enters into it really, it's just a matter of diplomacy and realizing that not every topic is going to be something I can or should contribute to. When I say easiest, I don't just mean quickest, I mean generating the least friction. Sure, it may not be helpful as such, but RTFM isn't exactly constructive advice either - people know full well that the manual is there but they're either too lazy to read it or they want human clarification.

People do ask some dumb questions (that "making Beats with Reasoned" one sounds like a classic), it's just that getting worked up about it only serves to get the recipient of the 'advice' on the defensive, and tends to escalate into shitslinging. Which has got to be one of the quickest ways to send a forum downhill.

Anyone here ever read a Calculus text, or perhaps Logic 7's manual?
If you are a teacher of the subject it is easy- one can even marvel at each author's unique approach at successfully covering a difficult problem. However, if you don't already understand the content you are reading about it is reasonable if now and then you can not follow the book, layout, author.
This is why there are several different Logic 7 and Calculus reference guides out there. Unfortunately, Live only has two so far that I know of, and I own them both.
Having both of these manuals means I am less dependent on other people. It's really great. So is live's manual. Live's so easy that I barely needed the manual, yet I purchased a second book for perspective and I have learned a lot from it. Ocaisionally I still feel the need to ask an obvious question, just because I am sure there are other special ways of doing things that haven been shared. For the most part I resist, because I know some moron is gonna take a frat-boy shot at his first "RTFM."
Shit, I have 3 books on Logic but I had a question that was so simple that it was either not even mentioned or entirely obscured in the text. I finally found it in the text after I spammed the internet with my problem. Out of countless RTFM's, a parallel subject was raised (albeit in the form of RTFM). Since I read my replies as meticulously as I RTFM (already,) I eventually got what I needed. I wasted a lot of time (to play Devil's advocate, however, I am better prepared for the program now.)
To complete my point, when a new user comes on to Live, regardless of wether or not they have purchased it yet, they have X amount of enthusiasm/capacity. Especially with the younger users, complete with ADD, getting them through the initial stages is crucial to establishing a foundation. Regardless of whatever skewered perception of cult-status or snobbery any of us may have- the more people that get involved in Live, the better the product is going to be, maintained, challenged, supported, recognized.
While it is sometimes frustrating to hear the same thing over and over again, saying RTFM, in any context, is like shitting the bed on a first date.

I wish there was a clause that if you said RTFM, you could be held to engage in a bloody battle to the death. Perhaps then there would be less be-otches projecting their feelings of inadequacy on this forum. I'm so glad I got that off my chest!

I really love this picture:



even if it is rather rude.

-Paws

simon wrote: And I'm also guessing that 95% of those rediculous questions are from people who did not legally aquire the software. (which, in turn would be lessened by a reg-only forum) and some of those threads are so off-the-wall that its almost a joke, and is almost always from someone with just a few posts. (And it's not like you're letting people like that in on some big secret by telling them to read the manual. If anything it's just troll-bate.)

For I've found it one of the most exciting things IS reading through the manual. Especially the Live one. So well written (and the built-in bookmark? genius!). Anyone who owns the software almost certainly went through it at least once. It's like candy.

and even though the Live manual is well written, sometimes it takes someone phrasing something a little different for it to click for someone else. Hence the forums.

Perhaps BTFS (Buy The F*cking Software) or BTFSOTTFIOFY (BTFS Or Try To Figure It Out For Yourself) needs to become another overused acronym.

borg wrote:
i think you'll make someone understand he needs to do a decent search (in whatever medium) much better when you direct him to a page of the manual or a specific thread and only then tell him to read the manual (it's a book or computer file. as far as i know, these things can't even fuck). if you can whine about 'how easy that is', you can do it yourself as well.

the whole point is that some people are too lazy to read the manual, so reading it for them is just rewarding their lazy attitude.

what this forum needs is moderators... there is too much obvious questions and posting in the wrong forums at the moment. there's also no troll defense.

believe me louZ, i don't sympathize at all with people asking about mp3 or 'only-one-track-in-record/solo'. but being plain rude is not the answer.

btw RTFM has become such a widespread term, that i personally don't regard it as an extremely rude way of saying it is clearly explained in the manual. (although i don't use the term myself. my above quote was the result of trying to be funny really early in the morning, sorry).

however, moderators wouldn't help here, imho. this forum and planetZ.com (creamware related) are the two places i come to alot, and the difference is huge. there's only one moderator there, and he banned two persons in six years. one because being an extreme facist/racist, one because he kept telling lies about the cards. apart from taking part in the threads and managing the technical bits of the forum (and developing devices and test programs...), those were his only interventions as mod. it's all peace and harmony there. it is possible! but it seems we've entered some kind of vicious circle here.

so yes, i vote for a BIG STICKY on top of the forum... or when a new member tries to make his first post, kindly direct him to the FAQ (and he should only be able to post after having visited this page). if he/she then decides to come up with nonsense questions, bring on the flames, but at the moment, it's getting out of hand.

i know i'm big and soft, and cudly

borg wrote:believe me louZ, i don't sympathize at all with people asking about mp3 or 'only-one-track-in-record/solo'. but being plain rude is not the answer.

btw RTFM has become such a widespread term, that i personally don't regard it as an extremely rude way of saying it is clearly explained in the manual. (although i don't use the term myself. my above quote was the result of trying to be funny really early in the morning, sorry).

however, moderators wouldn't help here, imho. this forum and planetZ.com (creamware related) are the two places i come to alot, and the difference is huge. there's only one moderator there, and he banned two persons in six years. one because being an extreme facist/racist, one because he kept telling lies about the cards. apart from taking part in the threads and managing the technical bits of the forum (and developing devices and test programs...), those were his only interventions as mod. it's all peace and harmony there. it is possible! but it seems we've entered some kind of vicious circle here.

so yes, i vote for a BIG STICKY on top of the forum... or when a new member tries to make his first post, kindly direct him to the FAQ (and he should only be able to post after having visited this page). if he/she then decides to come up with nonsense questions, bring on the flames, but at the moment, it's getting out of hand.

i know i'm big and soft, and cudly

a moderator could mainly be usefull to move threads to the right forums, change thread titles, coordinate stickies and close newb threads with questions that have been asked often before. that way the useless threads will not get bumped every time and the newbs know they have to investigate for themselves first.

banning would only be something to be used in the last resort, like at the other forum you mentioned.