Ableton Beginner Needs Controller Advice

[Guff Tong]

In retrospect (having done the complete opposite!) good monitors and acoustic treatment properly done should come before controllers or you should at least put them to the top of you 'to-do' list!

[23kon]

In retrospect (having done the complete opposite!) good monitors and acoustic treatment properly done should come before controllers or you should at least put them to the top of you 'to-do' list!

Shouldnt come before controllers! but working with good sound is important. whether that's with good headphones, monitors or even good hifi speakers. No point working with pissy PC speakers.
This guy is in a band though so I doubt he is happy with pissy small PC speakers anyway.

APC40 and Launchpad are similar but different.

I said in my prev post that if you get a launchpad you can use the pads too to control volumes/sliders too. But you will need knobs if you get a launchpad.

So i'd say your choice should be

-launchpad + nocturn
or
- apc 40

bear in mind the launchpad plus nocturn will be a LOT smaller and lighter and portable - plus nocturn has Automap software so you dont have to put stickers on yoru hardware to remember what knobs are assigned to what

[Guff Tong]

^ You think cool gadgets should before quality sound?

So I did it the right way after all!

[JGum]

Just to add to thoughts about monitors. Another involved already has proper monitors. There is other physical equipment such as the mics, drums, and guitars connected to mixers running to a PA as well already. Quality sound isn't the issue as much as getting me in the game with the other fellows. Thanks again for the words of wisdom everyone.

[admiralsnackbar]

I'd invest in a controller before nutting-up and investing in sound reinforcement and pro monitors. No point in throwing yourself into professionalism (and its attendant great expense) before you're even making money off your music, especially if you don't yet even know how you like making music.

That said, don't invest in any of Korg's nano kit. It is cheap, true, but it will also break on you at the worst possible moment. Make sure whatever you invest in feels solid/durable and do your homework to find unbiased reviews from people doing things like you want to.

Finally, buy according to who you want to be as a musician, not how X kit reflects the needs of your companions. Trust me: no matter how close you are to this group, it is perfectly likely that you will find yourself playing with a completely different set of mates this time next year.

[23kon]

Trust me: no matter how close you are to this group, it is perfectly likely that you will find yourself playing with a completely different set of mates this time next year.

or you might end up playing solo

Good advice about not going for gear that's too cheap as you get what you pay for.
But if you're just geting into musicmaking then it might be a sensible choice if you end up deciding its not for you.
Then just upgrade as the more you get into it.

I will put money on whatever you get and if you get into music making, other things will catch your eye.
Technologies are changing all the time and making our jobs easier and easier

[JGum]

Thanks you two, I'm already feeling selfish in trying to make my final decision. With no real desire to play the piano I wonder why I have let one musician friend talk me into an MPK49, I really wonder why I'm interested in any keyboard actually, other than the practicality of the device as a whole. I keep looking at the Launchpad, the BCR2000, and a padKontrol now completely ignoring the keyboard. My friend ended up getting the LPK25 and the LPD8 for his set up but he also has digital & live drums. Playing with some sets today I was trying to decide what I would really want. http://x.justingum.com/DCM.zip I think for sure the Launchpad or or APC40. That type of control interface seems invaluable. As far as other practical production pieces I have no idea... still staring at all these trying to decide what to order by the weekend. http://x.justingum.com/ableton/

[Element]

I am almost convinced that an iPad is the better option rather than an APC40 or similar, which is actually more expensive than an iPad (in aus at least).

but, I still think a combination of hardware and touchscreen would be the ultimate, maybe an iPad (for launching, x/y) and a MPK mini (for keys, knobs) or similar. Anyone using a setup like this?

[JGum]

In the states, where I'm at, the APC40 is about $100 less expensive than an iPad, though I am now looking at android tablets but I doubt I would want such a thing... if anything I might use my HTC EVO as a controller but no need for a tablet. I'm looking for dedicated or easily mappable gear for the tactile reasons mentioned initially. All I really could stand to gain from a tablet would be some sliders and non velocity sensitive triggers which is minimal for the financial investment included.

[23kon]

JGum,

If you want to create your own controllers per song/set then the best option is an iPad running TouchOSC/MidiTouch.
As long as you dont mind controlling sliders/knobs onscreen rather than an actual knob/slider then you really WONT be dissapointed with the bespokeness of these apps. Plus there are hundreds of other awesome apps out there for just a few pounds/dollars.

If you are still wanting to go the hardware route then I still recommend a launchpad and a nocturn.
You should get a deal on both. they are both pretty sturdy, not too expensive very portable and also the launchpad is expandable with extra scripts.

Even if you end up getting more equipment in the future, I bet you'd still be using these two in your setup too!

[JGum]

If you want to create your own controllers per song/set then the best option is an iPad running TouchOSC/MidiTouch.

Does it have to be an Apple product? I found a link with a few well recommended Android options as well. Kind of anti-Apple pro-Android no need for me to get the Apple product without it being absolutely necessary. Call me naive and correct me if I am wrong though as I am currently still ignorant to the hardware process. I am aware I'll be able to custom map my devices once I have them connected. As if to say I buy the Nocturn or Behringer, I can select knob 1 and assign it to any knob in Ableton. I was under the impression that if my devices were all connected and synced, each time I opened my Ableton Live set, the custom mapped controllers and their specific parameters would be set and waiting for my interaction. This was a reason I was interested in the Behringer. I thought in say, Set 1 my knobs all control pitch, modulation and dry/wetness for 8 different operators, but in Set 2 the knobs are assigned to the gain and velocity of a drum kit. I believed the Behringer's endless rotary knobs would facilitate this changing from one use to another more readily.

If I am incorrect in my understanding of the custom mapping capabilities of the midi devices and the software's ability to retain the custom maps per set please inform me as to where I may find more detailed information. This logic is something I was depending on (and maybe taking for granted?) as I have written some simple beats and melodies of different duration and am getting familiar with the composition techniques and see how the Launchpad/APC40 will benefit my scoring structure. The next natural step would be to gain control over my audio and midi effects with some knob action.

I was also hoping to eventually do something with max for live or something similar if M4L isn't necessary but I saw a video of Herrmutt Lobby using faders to "slide" from beat to beat or melody to melody.

Thinking practically in a world where everything is pre-composed and leveled it would be pretty sweet to have the Launchpad for sequencing/scoring live or composition based while using the Behringer knobs to:

1. Control DAW Effects (audio/tempo/etc)
2. Control sample sets (not sure if you can sweep through instrument packs as you would a drum machine) I could probably use an external sound module for this but would rather not.
3. Sweep through tracks (like the herrmutt lobby example)

Still ignorant to the program and obviously full of questions; Am I going to be able to activate/deactivate entire rows or columns at a time with a single command or will that need programmed or all buttons on a controller pressed in sync?

It would be sweet to be able to assign 2 knobs, one's rotation would cause stop/start of a row(s) of tracks while the other could control the same but in columns. This way allowing so much to happen with so little physical input. Wow, I wrote all that then read on ableton.com that Max only works on 8.2.2 and above :D I guess I'll wait for all that.

[23kon]

Yeah ableton lets you midi assign knobs as easy as you described. click midi learn in ableton then tweak your knob and hey presto its assigned.

The reason I say an ipad is better than a nocturn/sl zero is because you can create your own control surfaces in TouchOSC/TouchMidi. Need more knobs ... no prob, just create more. Need more sliders ... no prob just create more .... need an X/Y pad, no probs, just create one.

I can't comment on what the market or apps are like for the android.
What I do know from looking at the marketplace on a mates one and trying to find him a touchOSC equivalent is that theres a LOT less out there. A LOT less musicmaking apps.

Can't go wrong with an iPad. The amount of great music apps is astounding! and all for a few pounds/dollars.

Oh yeah - infinite knobs with LED feedback is the way to go on hardware so that way of you chance page/set/instrument then the dials all update themselves rather than you having to turn up/down the knobs yourself physically to the current positions.

[JGum]

The reason I say an ipad is better than a nocturn/sl zero is because you can create your own control surfaces in TouchOSC/TouchMidi. Need more knobs ... no prob, just create more. Need more sliders ... no prob just create more .... need an X/Y pad, no probs, just create one.

That's a pretty attractive feature. I found TouchDAW http://www.humatic.de/htools/touchdaw/ for my Android, trying to see if I'll be able to configure it via bluetooth to Ableton. From what I've read there are HTC multicast issues that may impede using that app. That would be a nice testing ground to see if I'd want to invest in the Apple MIDI options available. I'm also wondering if there would be an issue configuring the iPad to the PC or is it USB connected?

[pencilrocket]

Avoid Launchpad until it get sorted.

http://forum.ableton.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=170090
http://forum.ableton.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=145913
http://forum.ableton.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=165099
http://forum.ableton.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=170564

[JGum]

Thank you for the additional launchpad specific thread links pencilrocket. I've been using google to find other Ableton forum threads on hardware as well. Thank you Ableton for providing the forum.