Ableton Forum

Thanks, Samaritan. You're the only one who's even tried so far to help me here, and I appreciate that.

I will try the sawtooth and some other things. Meanwhile, I heard back from Ableton Support and they at least helped me with the MIDI track volume problem somewhat. The support guy understood that part of my problem, but not the rest, so I'm going to post most of the text of my answer back below. Maybe someone here (even if it's only you) will see something I didn't quite clarify before and an answer will come. If not, I'm giving up! I can't even find anyone else on the 'net asking this question, so it might be the question itself that's flawed, I just don't know. Thanks again.

From my e-mail back to Ableton:
"Thanks for responding to my question and sending back my project with the effect rack.

Adding the compressor does help some. It is now easier to hear the carrier as it's affected by my mic vocal. I played the synth loop you provided so I wouldn't have to keep pressing keys -- thanks for that. I'm new to side chains and chains in general, but I'm trying to learn, and I watched the [sidechain] tutorial you linked me to as well. Thanks!

My problem still remains, though, of still hearing the dry signal while using the vocoder. Maybe my lack of knowledge is preventing me from understanding the nature of how this works, and I'm beginning to wonder if dry signal (and hearing it) is necessary to do the actual vocoding. As I said before, in Houston Singletary's videos (Part 1 and 2) about the vocoder, he explains everything *except* how he suddenly completely eliminates the dry modulator signal for a few seconds! Now, I don't think I'll ever need to do this, but just a hypothetical -- what if I were using Ableton's Vocoder in a live performance? Would the audience hear the dry signal mixed with the vocoder output?

Let me see if I can make this better understood, because I think it's a communication problem on *my* end, mostly due again to my lack of experience or knowledge. First, I know that I can get the result I want by recording what I'm doing with the vocoder and end up with just the vocoded material (no actual voice in it). I can also record audio and synth separately and then use the vocoder, etc., however that's done (I'm sure that part's easy). But what I want to do instead is record the vocal while playing the synth. It is difficult to decide, for example, how much depth to add or experiment with the formant, frequencies, etc., if my voice is over all of that, even if it's less than it was before.

So, as clearly as I can say it: I want to eliminate my voice from my headphones/awareness as entirely as possible while adjusting the vocoder's settings, effects, etc., while playing the carrier into it. I know I will obviously still hear my voice naturally, but I'm talking about the signal actually going through the mic which ends up in my headphones along with the signal I am trying to hear. I hope that made sense. I'm looking for a way to speak into the mic, and the meter picks it up as necessary to modulate the carrier coming into the vocoder, but I don't want to *hear* it while it does that!

If I've overlooked something in the effects chain you included that would do this, then let me apologize. I tried adjusting the overall gain, the threshold on the compressor (unwanted feedback happened almost immediately when I did that, so I left it where it was). Could my problem be the mic pre-amp I'm using? My mic level is not going anywhere near the red, so I just don't know. In fact, when I first opened the project you sent back and turned the mic on, muted track 2 and played the synth, while speaking *softly* into the mic, there was echo, which always seems to come right before mega-red feedback loop from the combined signals.

Thanks so much for your help. If there is no way to do what I'm trying to do, even knowing that there is no way to do it will help, so I can get beyond it and try the other alternative (prerecord the audio). But I know people do this live, so I figure there *must* be a way to eliminate the voice."

All my mics are at my buddy's studio, otherwise I'd build you a small set to demo vocoding. Actually, I still may be able to with a standard vocal sample. In the meantime, you can hear my use of a vocoder in this track: http://soundclick.com/share.cfm?id=7149471

Samaritan, thanks for pointing me there - excellent! I hope you're getting $$ because you are really, really good!

Still at a loss here... still wonder what people do when performing live with Vocoder. Still waiting on Ableton Support. But no biggie. I figure if nothing else, I'll wake up in the afterlife someday and that will be one of those things I'll get the answer to.

Thanks, man. I'll try to make time tonight to build an ALP you can plug into and experiment with.

So, I just took a short vocal clip, added the vocoder with a carrier track, and tweaked the depth and formant to get a pretty standard vocoder sound. This is a Live Pack, so you install it from the File menu in Live. Try hot-swapping different carrier synths, and also set the vocoder track input to your mic and arm the track. You shouldn't hear any dry vocal. Let me know if the download link doesn't work.

Thanks for the link - got it! I'll try it tomorrow and let you know what I find out...

Hey, Samaritan. Thanks for the files. I installed your live pack, and it lets me see it, but it immediately gave me an error as I don't have that synth installed in my Live. So it said I couldn't save or import. No problem since this is a test to get the vocoder right. But after I got that error, it refused to play any of the samples you had. So, I can't hear anything. Or even play anything.

However, I'm going to keep trying, and try to copy your effects settings (vocoder and compression). Thanks again for taking the time to put that together.

EDIT - strike that - restarted the computer on a whim and now it's all working (tho it still says I can't save). So I'm just going to check out what you did and see if I can get a clue from it. Thanks!

Well...

Okay, I was able to listen to the test project you sent. I noticed that track 1's input was set to "auto" rather than "in". (Couldn't tell that that makes any difference, though.) Track 2 Audio To is set to "master" rather than to track 1, but I also can't tell that that matters. Track 1 was was not armed, track 2 was.

On listening, yes, all I hear is the vocoded signal (singing synth). If I turn vocoder device off, then I hear your actual voice. So that's all good.

So I found a way to copy your audio effects rack into my own project, and replaced your synth and prerecorded vocal with my own (prerecorded). And got the same results. So, all's well there.

Then I tried what you said above - mic in Track 1, turned it on. Hit play on track 2 (synth) and spoke into the mic. Again, lower signal from track 2 compared to the dry - overpowering dry.

I have the mic plugged into an ART Tube MP mic pre-amp, but it's the line-in jack (because I don't have the right mic jack for the mic-in one). The user guide says it will still work, although of course they recommend mic jack. The pre-amp is plugged into mic/line in on the sound card (the only input available). I only mention all of this because I'm inferring from what you've said that when you recorded this, you could not hear the dry signal even as you were recording it. But I can. So I'm thinking now it must be something about the the mic itself or the way its signal is going into the computer.

Still, my end result is the same as yours; I just can't hear it that way live. The dry signal is going straight in and bypassing the vocoder, having no effect until the synth is added. The synth is affected but not the dry. (Of course, you have dry vocal as well - wait a minute, you must have been able to hear it or you couldn't have sung, right? Or maybe I'm off on that.) In Houston Singletary's videos, you can hear him dry as well, but not all the time. And that's what's confusing me.

So, thanks again.. guess I'll have to tweak the vocoder settings *after* I record from the mic, so I can hear the pure vocoded synth.

Thanks again for all your help.

I can pretty much guarantee the dry Mic signal you'e hearing is coming directly via the soundcard, and not Ableton. The Creative cards typically have two sides to the mixer app - a recording (input) side, and a playback (output) side. The recording side is where you set your Mic input level for Ableton. On the playback side, your mic/line in should be set to 0 if you don't want any dry vocal in your monitors.

Doh! You know what? That's so obvious that I completely overlooked it! THANK YOU! (I feel so stupid now, but I think this just might work!)

Oh, by the way, that's not my voice - it's my buddy Rob's. Mine is much more nasal and whiny sounding, lol.

Oh, all righty then! lol

Guess what? Your very simple solution should work. But it isn't. I'm starting to think it's the sound card itself. I have microphone playback muted, I have "listen" unchecked, and I'm still hearing the mic. Well, you did what you could, I think. My next card will not be Creative - I am seeing all kinds of complaints about this particular card online. Now I know why! Thanks...

I read back through this thread and realize that you did mention this before (about input monitoring). After exploring all modes of the Creative X-Fi Fatal1ty, I think I'm going to find out what others are using and switch. I have an onboard HD card that would solve this problem, but it doesn't have the necessary ASIO drivers to solve latency problems in Ableton. Blah! Anyway, you helped me pretty much pin down what the problem is, so thanks Samaritan.

No problem, bro. I use a MOTU 828mkII, firewire. 10 analog inputs, plus I run an 8channel Mic pre into it via ADAT, which gives me 18 total inputs. I've been very happy with it.

Samaritan Sound wrote:No problem, bro. I use a MOTU 828mkII, firewire. 10 analog inputs, plus I run an 8channel Mic pre into it via ADAT, which gives me 18 total inputs. I've been very happy with it.

By the way, I'm a woman. (This is where you go, oh, *that* explains a lot!)

I'd never need anything that elaborate for what I'm doing (mostly in the software itself).

Thanks again for helping me see the answer right in front of my nose. It's like looking for house keys when they're in your hand. I actually did initially uncheck "listen" for the Creative mic and thought that should do it, but.. of course not. So I figured *I* must be overlooking something. Could not believe there was no way to do it.

Anyone else DJing or whatever using Ableton Vocoder - avoid Creative X-Fi Titanium/Fatal1ty (or, to be safe, anything in that family). Even in Audio Creation mode, you cannot mute your microphone without muting your mic's input with it. You *will* hear the mic in headphones/speakers. Purchase another sound card or prerecord your audio. I've used Creative cards for 20 years, but I'll be switching after this.