Is Session View counterproductive?

[Synthbuilder]

No I don't like the session view.

It's the mixer page for me - nothing else. I zoom up the faders until they are as big as they can be, erase all the little clip things, keep all the routing and track delay things on, even rename the last row that you can't get rid of with the track title.

I do try it from time to time but, no, for me the session view is the mixer, VSTi editing and routing view for me.

So why do I stick with Live. It works well with Reason, is mostly stable (for me anyway), the drag and drop is nicely implemented, I like the built in Sampler and other plugs, and the look is good (I use the default Live5 skin). But most of all I'm used to it so I can fly around it without thinking.

Having said I have been thinking about changing to S1.

Why? Because grass is greener...

Tony

[Angstrom]

I don't get "stuck in a loop", I think it's down to working practices.

I use Session to get as close as possible to what is in my mind, then I record that to arrangement. That might only be 16 or 32 bars, but it's laid down. From then I work on it in arrangement duplicating sections and thinking about structure, although I will go back into session and try out segment variations until I'm happy. Anything new which comes from session isn't recorded to arrangement, but dropped into place using insert-silence to create arrangement space for them and dropping them there.

I would also recommend not smoking as much weed. Weed makes you very now-focused, you will really get stuck into a loop when high. That's great for sound design, but not so much for arranging.

tldr;
My work is done in arrangement, and session is my doodle pad where I try stuff out / rehearse it first.

[fx23]

Session view rocks, no soft can ever match live speed to quick get results.
what i find counterproductive personally however is the way it was integreated:

the fact clips where handled as different entities in session vs arrange killed the potential:
_ no possibility to just tweak knob and rec your autom to clip.
_no possibility of free moves clips arrange/session. basically you start in session, and once
went in arrange you are stucked, and back and forth moves become tricky and messy.

like many i sketch all in session, but at some point i am f,,,d with autom so rec the whole stuff
in arrange to make better transitions/timed stuff/ automations. then id like to convert back an
arrange portion back to a session 'scene' for live playing but no way...

it seems this is gonna soon work as it always deserved, (at least on a product from a different compagny...)
and i hope few people will understand atlast the awesome impact of making clips with dual automs layers compatible session/arrange
on daily workflow.. and this will then become an absolutely needed feature for live (it is from years, but seeing effective on a real concurent product may speed up a little bit it's integration to live,..at least i hope so...)

[kitekrazy]

If you note one thing about Tom Cosm's workflow, you'll see he produces in arrangement view, and then chops it up for session mode, for performance use.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ix2IErEHa7A (Creating in arrangement pt1)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7m0bzKa966Y (Creating in arrangement pt2)
http://vimeo.com/1701545 (Transitioning from arrangement to session)

It's the most logical route IMO. Of course there are no rules.

Thank' for those great links.

Interesting that other software like Sonar has added a Session View. It must not be a bad thing. It is useful as a quick sketch pad using loops. It can be used for practicing instruments.

[mholloway]

There is no 'wrong' way of using the two...

The concept of 'recording scenes into arrangement' is cool, but is the only part that doesn't actually sit well with my particular workflow. This is because it seems to encourage a free-flowing, or almost jam-like approach to arranging your scenes, which is simply not how my musical-brain works in terms of arrangement, specifically. When I'm sequencing in Session View, I'm all about "jamming" out ideas until I've perfected all the separate scenes. During that process, I'm all for the jam+improv+experiment approach, which session view is fantastic for. But when it comes time to arrange the scenes, I prefer precision and planning as my method: the carefully constructed scenes need to unfold in a *very* specific order and manner. I'm well aware there could be advantages to just freely 'jam' recording them over to arrange, but it drives me crazy, I always think "I forgot to play one of the best ones!" or somesuch thing

A good way to accomplish this is to tighten up the session view before arrangement, copying all the most important scenes to the top of the sequencer and labelling them specifically, such as "intro," "verse a," "verse b," etc...Then when i Record to Arrangement, I trigger them in a specific order based on which part they are labelled as.

-M

[simmerdown]

I always think "I forgot to play one of the best ones!" or somesuch thing

A good way to accomplish this is to tighten up the session view before arrangement, copying all the most important scenes to the top of the sequencer and labelling them specifically, such as "intro," "verse a," "verse b," etc...Then when i Record to Arrangement, I trigger them in a specific order based on which part they are labelled as.

-M

when i forget something, i go back and overdub that specific track or section making sure to use those 'best' clips

when you are messing around in session, the most useful command is Capture/insert scene...this will accomplish essentially what mholloway said there

hear something good? a dynamic clip combo? dont let it get lost...ctrl+shift+I

i do 90% in session, then bounce it into arrangement...its still far from done though, i tighten things up a bit by hand, but i try to do as little as possible in arrange, trying to preserve the live bounce feel of it, my goal is to rec into arrange and have it be 100% except for a final minimal mix/master...and, if its getting an acapella i add that and do all the vox treatment and timing work in arrange

BUT,it not just a totally improvised free--for-all, i have already added structure in the way i set in up in session, with those Captured scenes and launch automation timed out to give it a framework, usually in the percussion dept.....

[massenmedium]

Follow actions and groups of clips can be useful for fills and transitions between sections in Session view.

[hacktheplanet]

I think the main point of the article is the differences between "vertical" and "horizontal" thinking about song structure. To that I would say "So what?!" Arrangement view caters more to the "horizontal," and Session to the "Vertical."

When I write rock music in my band, I think about my songs horizontally. That is, with a intro-verse-chorus-verse-bridge-chorus-outro structure. Each part is different by way of chord structure, lyrical content, little licks here and there, or whatever. When I write electronic dance music, I focus more on variations of a particular theme. It feels more like a jam session than songwriting.

That is not to say that one way is better than the other. In fact, it's loads of fun to try to incorporate elements of vertical and horizontal structure.

[massenmedium]

Good point. Vertical and horizontal dancing are both good in their own ways and no reason to go without one for the other.

[djadonis206]

Clip envelopes are invaluable to the session view experience. However, session view only goes so far. There are some detailed edits and clip placements that clip envelopes cannot replicate. then again, tabbing back and forth to edit clips in arrange view and triggering in session view works

[supamonsta]

Session View is the essence of Live.

It is made to play music LIVE, so you don't stick with a premade arrrangement, you play the arrangement you want.

The Arrange view is just the classical DAW part of live, its horizontal tool. (and I'm sure logic's or cubase's or digital performer or protools ones are very better).

Besides, the session view allows all that's been said here and even more I'm pretty sure....

so call it counterproductive if you want, but hey,

[Guff Tong]

As I acquired more controllers over the years I got more into using session view.

Now I work solely by creating a session track with midi triggered fx chains etc.., live mixing/cutting etc. and record each jam with a date saving the session track on its own as it progresses.

Tweaks can be made and takes combined though I try to keep it 'live' sounding.

This help my band background as I feel its more live that way. intuitive.

when I'm happy with the work I'm doing (procrastinating) my live sets ready to go.

Never start from arrangement these days aside from recording the odd live instrument.

w.

[Saxer]

session view is for mixing colours
arrange view is the canvas

[The Carpet Cleaner]

I understand the OP problem.

Try this : get something interesting in session view, get a rought idea of what you want. Then record! And then work on the arrangment view. Your problem is that you spend too much time on the session view and get stuck in it. Instead of doing 70% in session and 30 in arrangment, do the other way arround. And actually you will
Spend less time on your project because you'll go faster.

It's the same story with midi/audio. Try to go audio to commit ASAP and move on.

[simmerdown]

session view is for mixing colours
arrange view is the canvas

thats good