No delay compensation for Automation??

Discuss music production with Ableton Live.
fx23
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Joined: Wed Jul 08, 2009 3:23 pm

Re: No delay compensation for Automation??

Post by fx23 » Sat Mar 17, 2012 4:45 pm

pencilrocket wrote:I think this is inevitable in any host. Tell us what sequencers have its solution and how they would avoid. Just shift the automation to meke it sound fine. Use your ear as DJs doing. Nothing difficult.
Logic correctly transmit midi clock infos to vsts even if the chain is altered by latency, Pro tools now fully compensate automations, that's more than enough, and even if no challenger would do better, it's not an excuse to not show the exemple to get better sound and innovate, being a market leader in ableton leage with such price tag. Man could notice they were very shy in their manual until the big threads about that, since then they added those small lines 'they had forgotten to mention'. They seem to be pro musicians with descent musical tastes but don't seem to be concerned that much by this problem wich is here from v5 and has been reported many many times...ask a guitarist if he would accept a 512 sample offset between the vibrato he his doing and the corellation to the notes he his playing, he will cerainly feel it's weird...iam very curious about if bitwig made same mistake or took the time to implement proper remote compensations at the same time as PDC, i do hope they made the smart choice... compensated autom to session would be a win-win...

As for the dj comparaison.. imagine a dj would have his crossfader affected by various random evolving latencies, would that be pro, musical or fun to play with?
sure you can easy manual adjust with the dj trick equivalent i mention by ears as your are doing it, shifting each time you automate. but what about later evolves maintenances?, do you mean the chain has to remain frozen and never being further altered?
Actually to make the track he is djing he has to go in every SINGLE lane he carefully automated in ALL clips of a track to keep/restore that time balanced,fitting,groovy subbtle thing (but that makes the difference) he probably took loong time to search and write, cause that subtle thing got slowly but surely drifted, scrambled, cancelled and destroyed over time ie, just by the fact he just added or removed a single VST effect afterwards.. would he do this each time he changes a vst? is that seriously a good and doable descent workflow?

the facts are no one is noticing enough or ready to make such weird manual insane corrections jobs, so everybody don't care, let it go and end-up with a more or less sloppy liveset that's still ok, and just may wonder why it doesn't seem to sound as tight as hardware indeed. people mostly prefer to do basic summing null test between daws to compare a 'sound engine' (every binary computer does same basic math float32 add operation with same result.. awesome!!.. daws sounds all the same blabla). PDC clearly mess the sound, there are plenty of simple tests to prove this...Some may be not concerned depending on how they are demanding about tighness, musical style, their vst uses and other stuff, but the problem is technically and proven there, and for lot of users it's a very very serious problem. concerning the 'MUSICAL ENGINE' it's even the highest priority problem to be fixed imo, get it atlast fixed and tight... without pain.

pencilrocket
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Re: No delay compensation for Automation??

Post by pencilrocket » Sat Mar 17, 2012 5:48 pm

fx23 wrote:Logic correctly transmit midi clock infos to vsts even if the chain is altered by latency,...
Okay but don't you easily find the page regarding sample accurate automation issue when you google? Do you just want ableton to say "hey we implemented PPDC!(Precise PDC) thyngy", "*but if the result isn't pleasing move your automation slightly before or later." to hype noobs.

There is no magic.

fx23
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Re: No delay compensation for Automation??

Post by fx23 » Sat Mar 17, 2012 6:24 pm

PT has sample accurate automation. Logic has not but had since start a very clear explain in their manual about what was compensated or not, the way it worked, without kind of the ableton 'hide & shy' way, and midi clocked vst are usable at least. i reckon lot of compagnies play the same game, but again there is no excuse to not bring the thing first if you care about sound quality. TBH i don't care about competitors exept bitwig, i just want either them or ableton to make a properly working pdc system and tight vst compatible creative daw, that's not a magic thing, thats maths, programming and hard work, and mostly fixing level of priorities in a schedule.

petit nuage
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Re: No delay compensation for Automation??

Post by petit nuage » Sun Mar 18, 2012 2:43 pm

@FX23 : i totally agree with you ...

Jekblad
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Re: No delay compensation for Automation??

Post by Jekblad » Sun Mar 18, 2012 3:23 pm

yeah that's why I stopped using automation all together. It's just not worth it.
2.4 ghz Macbook Pro 8gb RAM, SSD, Live 9 Suite, Puremagnetik, Minimal Talent

RD444
Posts: 265
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Re: No delay compensation for Automation??

Post by RD444 » Sun Mar 18, 2012 3:59 pm

Jekblad wrote:yeah that's why I stopped using automation all together. It's just not worth it.
It also affects tempo synced effects. If they are placed after anything that has a latency more than 0.00!

In the pdf manual but not the paper one.
"Plugin Delay compensation -PDC WARNING - Ableton Live 9 does not sequence all information correctly in time"
The bigger the project the more out of time it will be.

Jekblad
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Re: No delay compensation for Automation??

Post by Jekblad » Sun Mar 18, 2012 4:04 pm

Yeah that's why I stopped using tempo synced effects too.
2.4 ghz Macbook Pro 8gb RAM, SSD, Live 9 Suite, Puremagnetik, Minimal Talent

pencilrocket
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Re: No delay compensation for Automation??

Post by pencilrocket » Sun Mar 18, 2012 6:01 pm

Will that be why you stopped making music then?

2be
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Re: No delay compensation for Automation??

Post by 2be » Sun Mar 18, 2012 7:08 pm

The missing PDC for automation is the biggest flaw in Live for me atm.
And I'm not an Ableton hater in any way, in fact I love Live 8 and have very few issues with it.
My projects tend to get huge, I love my selfmade complex effect and instrument racks (one of the biggest strenghts of Live imo); the delay sometimes gets as huge as a 16th note.
Please Ableton, fix this and add proper automation curves in Live 9 and I will buy it instantly.

RD444
Posts: 265
Joined: Tue Oct 19, 2010 3:59 pm

Re: No delay compensation for Automation??

Post by RD444 » Sun Mar 18, 2012 11:11 pm

i was ableton 9 out of 10 to start with

then when i found out it wasn't compatible with automap (recordings of automation are jagged and out of time) i gave it a 7 out of 10

now i find out it doesnt play stuff or plugs in time 6.5 out of 10

Well at least its stable

its totally unprofessional of them to not have an accurately synced program
its totally unprofessional of them to not bother to change this

- not mentioned in the paper manual either (very sly) only the PDF

I see why people use cracks (because the original of LIVE is still a BETA)
"Plugin Delay compensation -PDC WARNING - Ableton Live 9 does not sequence all information correctly in time"
The bigger the project the more out of time it will be.

icedsushi
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Re: No delay compensation for Automation??

Post by icedsushi » Mon Mar 19, 2012 12:26 am

All the other major DAW's do this flawlessly with any & all 3rd party plugins?

petit nuage
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Re: No delay compensation for Automation??

Post by petit nuage » Mon Mar 19, 2012 2:00 am

It will be more customers friendly and logical to release a 8.5 version with that fixed because how many people nowadays works without third parties plugs ?

ABOVE ALL : it would let me think that since live 5, all the updates ive paid for( ALL ..since live 4 in my case), were released consciously with that issue unfixed ?
...and again i should pay for that to be fixed ?

because personnaly and others serious musicians/producers, would have surely prefered , this MAIN and CRUCIAL thing, that is latency/ timing for making music, be fixed in order to have a new fx or a new function maybe not soo essential than that !
and again i love live but there ..i clearly dont understand ableton ..
Last edited by petit nuage on Mon Mar 19, 2012 2:22 am, edited 5 times in total.

RD444
Posts: 265
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Re: No delay compensation for Automation??

Post by RD444 » Mon Mar 19, 2012 2:02 am

i wrote to customer service. about this "unprofessional timing shambles"

write to them

support@ableton.com

They may fix it aftere all these years

i bet they dont bother
"Plugin Delay compensation -PDC WARNING - Ableton Live 9 does not sequence all information correctly in time"
The bigger the project the more out of time it will be.

pencilrocket
Posts: 1718
Joined: Tue Jun 15, 2010 10:46 am

Re: No delay compensation for Automation??

Post by pencilrocket » Mon Mar 19, 2012 6:37 am

petit nuage wrote:It will be more customers friendly and logical to release a 8.5 version with that fixed because how many people nowadays works without third parties plugs ?

ABOVE ALL : it would let me think that since live 5, all the updates ive paid for( ALL ..since live 4 in my case), were released consciously with that issue unfixed ?
...and again i should pay for that to be fixed ?

because personnaly and others serious musicians/producers, would have surely prefered , this MAIN and CRUCIAL thing, that is latency/ timing for making music, be fixed in order to have a new fx or a new function maybe not soo essential than that !
and again i love live but there ..i clearly dont understand ableton ..
Didn't pros already make songs in Live? Didn't they use thirdparty plugins? You are funny.

petit nuage
Posts: 431
Joined: Wed Aug 16, 2006 12:31 pm

Re: No delay compensation for Automation??

Post by petit nuage » Mon Mar 19, 2012 12:47 pm

hey keep cool man and dont be condenscending please !

ok i just wanted to tell that serious producers who works with lot of third parties plugs and complex fx chains SHOULD require a solid pdc/timing to their daw's company before some fx or some cool features, which is for me not as ESSENTIAL as that .

maybe some people dont know about that but inconciously find the sound of live becoming muddy after adding more tracks, plugs and automations.
and dont forget lot of people and pros create with live BUT mix with pro tools or logic...
maybe they would have prefered to mix directly in live their main daw.

and when you use live for gigs its not the same than mixing because of numbers of tracks, fx chains ,routing ,sends, engaged .
for me solid timing ITS CRUCIAL, because i use lot of tracks and complex routing ,fx chains etc.. if for you its not, thats cool .


and again i love live its my only one daw and i dont want to change but this issue its not a little bug for me .

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