Will you use Automatic Updates in 8.3?

[sporkles]

I don't mind the OPTIONAL automatic updates feature; I'll just keep it switched off. Automatic updates are bad - it's as simple as that. I like to have some idea of what's going on. I don't see any reason to update unless the new version fixes a specific problem I've been having, or adds a feature that I really want. Updating just because there's a new version has caused me trouble with both Traktor and Live.

Regarding the new naming scheme, without revision number, I assume this is just on the installation side of things? I mean, how will they cater to those of us who choose manual updates if the latest version doesn't have a number?

I guess there will be a version number in the release notes, so that you can just keep installing to separate folders, manually naming them based on revision number.

[pepezabala]

The "old" model of not overwriting the old install was fine and had many advantages.

Only disadvantage was that stupid users might get confused and have a mess of different installs on their harddisk, not knowing which version opens when they hit the button in the dock/on their desk top.

Now the stupid users can be sure to always use the latest version. The smart users will have to install in a "hacker" way, renaming older versions when installing updates etc. so they can continue to work the old way.


I guess this is probably somehow related to copy-protection schemes, having the application making a call home should be quite useful for checking if a copy is legit or not. Or the other way round: A pirated copy will try to avoid to make this call home, and thus might be easy to implement something that makes pirated copies useless after some time without upgrading.

This is my 3 glasses of wine conspiracy theory for tonight. discuss.

[regretfullySaid]

n/m I thought hits might've been a beta-only thing but I guess not...

[ttilberg]

I guess this is probably somehow related to copy-protection schemes, having the application making a call home should be quite useful for checking if a copy is legit or not. Or the other way round: A pirated copy will try to avoid to make this call home, and thus might be easy to implement something that makes pirated copies useless after some time without upgrading.

I too wondered if it had anything to do with copy protection related stuff.

Only disadvantage was that stupid users might get confused and have a mess of different installs on their harddisk, not knowing which version opens when they hit the button in the dock/on their desk top.

Now the stupid users can be sure to always use the latest version. The smart users will have to install in a "hacker" way, renaming older versions when installing updates etc. so they can continue to work the old way.

While I support the automatic updating in general, I agree that the fact that it overwrites your installation instead of giving you the option of installing it side-by-side will lead to trouble. Then again, perhaps bugs will get fixed and pushed out in a more timely manner because people will go bonkers since everyone gets updated at the same time, instead of when they think about it. I wonder if part of their reasoning for this has to do with a certain number of support tickets that are solved by "Install the newest version" or something... ?

[Angstrom]

I don't know if it's anything to do with copy-protection, but I strongly doubt it - simply because so many legit users have studio or performance machines which are disconnected from the net.

My guess is that outside of the forum user (who tends to be up-to date on any news and versions), there is a much wider circle of users who never visit, never read the newsletter, and have never bothered to update their versions from whichever was in the box they received from megamusiccorp.com

I think those users first contact with the company may be when they email support about a bug which was fixed two years ago in version 8.02, or something.

Ableton probably get plenty of irate emails from these users on old versions, and are trying to steer those users toward a process that keeps their bugs fixed.

I think for people like us who cannot leave the internet alone, the auto-updates is not such a great thing . For the other guys, still wondering why their Launchpad doesn't get recognized in Live 8.01, it probably is a good thing.

[synnack]

I think for people like us who cannot leave the internet alone, the auto-updates is not such a great thing . For the other guys, still wondering why their Launchpad doesn't get recognized in Live 8.01, it probably is a good thing.

Great point. It's just like security updates. Most virus's are still exploiting vulnerabilities that have patches out. It's just that so few people patch unless it's automatic.

Even if you prompt "a new version is out would you like to install it?" most people will hit no.

[3dot...]

nope. turned it off..
but I wouldn't mind if it notified me about 'em..
(who am I kidding .. I'm here almost daily!)

[Machinesworking]

I think for people like us who cannot leave the internet alone, the auto-updates is not such a great thing . For the other guys, still wondering why their Launchpad doesn't get recognized in Live 8.01, it probably is a good thing.

Great point. It's just like security updates. Most virus's are still exploiting vulnerabilities that have patches out. It's just that so few people patch unless it's automatic.

Even if you prompt "a new version is out would you like to install it?" most people will hit no.

I'm not at all sure how that relates to applications like Ableton Live though? Sure security updates I kind of get, but OSX doesn't automatically update, and honestly I find it one of the most annoying things about Windows when I use it, that it runs automatic updates etc.

IMO again, the best method is to have a "check for updates at startup" option. I doubt anything is going to keep the people who don't check to see if they have the latest version before calling tech support from wasting tech supports time.

[sporkles]

EDIT: things don't look as grim as I first thought; basically, you can still install to separate locations for each revision, and, as long as you have admin rights, you can even use the the auto update feature, if that is what you want - you're not bound to the default location.

The way I see it (IF I've read things right), this is going to have minimal impact on both camps: those of us who wish to have the security of having several versions available, can do as we always have, and the others (of whom many probably don't even realise they have more than one version installed) will have a cleaner folder system, and things will be easier with automatic updates (unless the latest version cocks something up!)

There's one thing I'm not entirely in the clear on, though: how will this all affect the data that was previously in the APPDATA folder? (user remote scripts, etc, which were always copied to a new revision folder for smooth transition) Is this folder done away with entirely, with everything now in the programme folder? (And, in which case, is this part left untouched when you auto update? What about manual, parallell installs - will you have to copy the settings manually?)

http://forum.ableton.com/viewtopic.php?f=42&t=177886

[3dot...]

the appdata stuff stays the same.. you can see that it's labeled 'live 8.3' in there..

[pepezabala]

I downloaded 8.3 and turned auto-update off. I stuffed the application into a folder that I renamed "Live 8.3". I even renamed the application to "Live 8.3".

Now I am paranoid. Will I get informed about upcoming updates? Am I acting silly? Will Clyphex work if I want to use it? Is Ableton playing tricks on me? Am I playing tricks on them?

Hmrphf. Maybe I turn auto-updates on and render some stuff to soundcloud. Will I feel better then?

[javierf55]

Of course I will. Ableton is a good tool and I trust the engineers they have. It's like deactivating updates in Windows and loosing the opportunities to correct day by day problems.

[Machinesworking]

Of course I will. Ableton is a good tool and I trust the engineers they have. It's like deactivating updates in Windows and loosing the opportunities to correct day by day problems.

Well after 9 years with Ableton Live, 18+ with Digital Performer, roughly 10 with Logic... I would flatly state you're comparison isn't accurate at all, and that you simply haven't seen enough time in the trenches to recognize problems before they happen.

These programs are all dependent on other code to run. Even the simplest set up has audio and MIDI drivers written by different companies. On Windows you have various methods of interacting with MIDI, and in OSX you have two possible plug in types to choose from. They do a great job, but we have right now with Ableton Live 8, what was/is for a lot of people the buggiest version ever released, and to think that every bug fix is 100% going to work on every set up out there is asking for problems.

Every DAW I've ever used has had stable versions and unstable versions, and Live 8 was widely reported to be far less stable after the first few updates than before. With that in mind I really don't get why anybody in their right mind would think that an automatic update system would be a good choice? The timing on this IMO could only be worse if it had been earlier in the 8 cycle.There are a lot of things I think Ableton get really right, but this isn't one of them, and I honestly feel sorry for people who go along with this, and experience bugs or conflicts with their plug ins or hardware after an update, but to those of you who blithely stand by this after hearing all the stories from people who have experienced problems at least be humble when complaining if an update screws you.

Here's a short list of issues I've seen in DAWs after updates:
Kontakt GUI white screen. Zebra 2 crashing DAW, Battery 2 crashing DAW. MIDI issues with Beat Clock, random crashes seemingly related to the OS, audio driver GUI issues, backwards compatibility to older sets compromised, and CPU spikes.

So to me it's MUCH smarter to save your old version including all related files previous to an update, this way if an issue prevents you from working you can go back.
My "company loyalty" is very dependent on Ableton holding up their end of the deal, and I trust they will try to release the best version they can, but they are human.

[Bagatell]

Of course I will. Ableton is a good tool and I trust the engineers they have. It's like deactivating updates in Windows and loosing the opportunities to correct day by day problems.

I trust Ableton too, but I gave up on the hassle of Windows and the internet some time ago.