PDC poll

[agent314]

really blown away by some of the attitudes on this forum. PDC automation is a KNOWN Ableton problem, it's in the manual. and you guys are polling it. as if it doesn't exit.

I'm not saying it doesn't exist, by any means - clearly it does, and there have been plenty of forum posts about it, from Ableton employees themselves

I'm just floored that I've been using Live almost every day for close to 3 years and have had any trouble with this, and I'm trying to figure out if I'm in a fortunate minority or if the people who experience problems with it are just more vocal about it than people who don't

[nathannn]

btw, im not annoyed that you are bringing up this issue im annoyed that you and others wont show us in a 21st century way (post audio, post a video, post a set) of this problem.

[agent314]

Also I'm curious about what plugs seem to be the worst offenders. I have seen Fabfilter plugs mentioned more than any others in reference to PDC issues, and I'm wondering if the fact that I don't use any Fabfilter VSTs has spared me from the PDC timing problems some others have had

[pencilrocket]

4 steps to reproduce.
*Make a midi clip that generates eighth note tone per step around 120BPM - 4 eighth notes/bar.
*Add both latency plugin and something that has volume control.

*Create a automation for its volume control.
*Draw lines that mute the volume while that tone isn't sounding.

If the original note's length is altered that means the automation is out of the audio's tempo clock. If you use high latency plugin you can easily find out.

[nathannn]

Also I'm curious about what plugs seem to be the worst offenders. I have seen Fabfilter plugs mentioned more than any others in reference to PDC issues, and I'm wondering if the fact that I don't use any Fabfilter VSTs has spared me from the PDC timing problems some others have had

i know diva is a plug in that produces delay but live seems to handle it well.

[sdfak1234]

im not saying it isnt a real problem, im convinced something is wrong with reason but the user's of reason disagree.
im saying i have not experienced this issue. maybe it is because im not a pro. but since you are coming from a more proffesional world than some of us maybe you could educate us a bit by posting an example.

how you explained to do the test makes it seem like it would take longer to post a response than to produce an example.
you have to look at it from everyone elses point of view. its like saying you seen a alien but providing no proof of what you seen and expecting people to take it seriously.
you have been on this forum all day, but now you dont have time to post a little example?

I do understand where you are coming from, and I will try to get examples, I'm surprised people haven't posted them before...but actually making an example isn't as easy as it sounds, and I've tried to explain that... there will be people on this forum who have tests ready to go, I haven't got one at the moment. The problem is bad for me at the end of projects after loads of tiny unnoticed shifts, all of a sudden you realize timing has been loosening up, so how do I post an example of that?, because I'd have to show a sketch of a track against a finished track, you wouldn't be able to notice... I wasn't trying to call anyone amateur, I was trying to say it takes a eye/ear that realizes what is happening. I've had good examples before, another example where this is a problem is with plugin updates, I've loaded up old projects where my VST plugins have been updated, their delays have changed and now the track sounds completely different.. in a digital recording studio this wouldn't be acceptable and the kind of variation isn't comparable to analog warmth, we're talking major digital shifting which can be quite extreme.

[agent314]

@nathannn, It's not the same though - DIVA is a sound source, not an effect

It's definitely a real thing - I have done tests and been able to reproduce it using time-sensitive plugs and automation

I'm just wondering if I'm lucky enough not to notice it/be bothered by it or if my workflow isn't affected by it or what

[nathannn]

4 steps to reproduce.
*Make a midi clip that generates eighth note tone per step around 120BPM - 4 eighth notes/bar.
*Add both latency plugin and something that has volume control.

*Create a automation for its volume control.
*Draw lines that mute the volume while that tone isn't sounding.

If the original note's length is altered that means the automation is out of the audio's tempo clock. If you use high latency plugin you can easily find out.

make this example
click on file/click save as self contained set
upload to drop box
share with the forum

[sdfak1234]

@nathannn, It's not the same though - DIVA is a sound source, not an effect

It's definitely a real thing - I have done tests and been able to reproduce it using time-sensitive plugs and automation

I'm just wondering if I'm lucky enough not to notice it/be bothered by it or if my workflow isn't affected by it or what

If you have really shit hot hardware and low buffer and don't use many time delaying effects it would be barely noticeable... BUT I argue that however small, the tiny changes accumulate and cause problems with the purity of your data, this may not be a problem for you now, but surely you want your projects to be perfect not slightly altered by artifacts. I mean maybe I'm just a purist but I actually want it sample accurate.

[OzWozEre]

http://www.musicradar.com/news/tech/abl ... see-545509

Dada Life, Electro House DJ and production duo:

"We just want to see delay compensation. That's it! To achieve this, Ableton will have to have two modes; one 'producer' mode and one 'live' mode. In 'producer' mode we don't need Ableton to be 'stand-by' if we willpush a knob or do something on the fly. It only needs to read the automation that has been written and be super-tight and delay compensated. In 'live' mode Ableton can be as it is now."

Funny, I read another member here suggest the exact same thing.

It seems to an issue on even high profile producers' minds these days I guess

[agent314]

Maybe that's just a difference in personal style then

If it sounds good to me, I'm happy with it

[nathannn]

@nathannn, It's not the same though - DIVA is a sound source, not an effect

It's definitely a real thing - I have done tests and been able to reproduce it using time-sensitive plugs and automation

I'm just wondering if I'm lucky enough not to notice it/be bothered by it or if my workflow isn't affected by it or what

ok so back to your question then, what plug ins produce this?
the only plug ins i use for audio are
guitar rig
vintage amp room
valhallaroom
waves s1 imager
and lives effects.

maybe this is why i dont have the problem?

[sdfak1234]

@nathannn, It's not the same though - DIVA is a sound source, not an effect

It's definitely a real thing - I have done tests and been able to reproduce it using time-sensitive plugs and automation

I'm just wondering if I'm lucky enough not to notice it/be bothered by it or if my workflow isn't affected by it or what

ok so back to your question then, what plug ins produce this?
the only plug ins i use for audio are
guitar rig
vintage amp room
valhallaroom
waves s1 imager
and lives effects.

maybe this is why i dont have the problem?

It's not the plugins themselves nathannn, it's not even the automation itself, it's the interaction of the two things as you add and remove FX and automation to your project. It could be that your particular workflow doesn't cause the problem, this is very possible, if for example, you applied automation after completing your FX chain, or you're bouncing, actually there are many different things you can do to create the inbalance, and even then, if your project isn't super complex it may be unnoticeable, I believe it's possible you have experienced the problem is just hasn't been in your face, a small shift is no big deal but that instability in a large project cascades and ruins work.

[CooCooCaCha]

Maybe that's just a difference in personal style then

If it sounds good to me, I'm happy with it

That's nice. However, for some of us these issues prevent things from sounding good.

Personally I tend to use a lot of effects and it's not uncommon for me to use an FX Rack with multiple FX chains per track. I'm also very picky about how my kickdrums sound and will use things like VolumeShaper to change the kick envelope or chop off the ends. I also use VolumeShaper on pretty much every track as a pseudo sidechain effect so that I have more control over it than a traditional sidechain effect. It becomes really annoying when my envelopes in Volumeshaper shift all over the place in response to me changing my FX chains.

It's also really annoying to have all my automation shift because one of my tracks as a bit of latency.

[nathannn]

so you are saying this is something an amateur wouldn't notice?
i in no way consider myself a pro but from playing in bands that required a mechanical rhythm i feel i do know timing issues when i hear them.

i just tried your automation test and nothing happened, i tried it with a few plugins that i know to produce delay and plug ins that i have know idea if they produce delay.

i really wish you would just upload a simple live set with the examples you have given.

ugh. yeah, I'm saying an amateur wouldn't notice, that's exactly what I'm saying [sarcasm]. just a lame response, totally unhelpful.

look, I haven't got time to explain this any further, but you actually don't get it - figure that out for yourself, not saying you're an amateur but you don't understand this problem. If you weren't aware of the problem, you may never notice it, like myself, once I understood it, it became clear.

audio examples are not good because it's not a/b, and timing issues are relative, BUT it is possible to show examples... maybe if I have time at the weekend I'll post some.

really blown away by some of the attitudes on this forum. PDC automation is a KNOWN Ableton problem, it's in the manual. and you guys are polling it. as if it doesn't exit.

i see you dont have time to explain which is ok so, maybe some one else will.

i am calling my self an amateur , i see myself as a musician not as a producer. so, is this problem something that would cause an amateur to spend hours trying to get a mix to sound right but still fail if they did not know pdc was causing the problem?
basically,is the mix going to sound bad no matter what you do if there is a pdc issue?

coming from a back ground as a guitarist i know that if a new guitarist starts off with a shit guitar they will think they cant play well and might just give up.