Ableton Forum

puzzlefactory wrote:

Citizen wrote:

puzzlefactory wrote:
Ultimately i would bounce the layered drum sounds down as single samples, either by recording the audio from Maschine into the designated Live audio tracks, or by re-sampling the sounds internally in Maschine.

Do you ever find that you want to go back and tweak the layers after you havedonethis?

Also, does that then mean that you are using a combination of audio tracks and Midi for your drum group in Live? Does that get confusing/limiting in any way?

As long as you save a copy of your project you can go back and make any changes you want.

Yeah, I would stick with audio in Live and keep the MIDI in Maschine, which you can always come back to make changes if needed and you're always a quick drag and drop away.

As far as layering, I prefer the Pad Link method: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dhFfff5ERoE

Good points puzzle factory - I never really thought about bouncing down layered drums into single hits to be reused. That makes a lot of sense.

I don't suppose you could also answer my other questions that I mistakenly addressed to Cmockett? (hey, it was early!)

delicioso wrote: Yeah, I would stick with audio in Live and keep the MIDI in Maschine, which you can always come back to make changes if needed and you're always a quick drag and drop away.

Just so I'm clear - are you dragging audio into live for each drum pattern for each drum pad - so that you can still individually process the audio in Live?

I guess if I want to make changes to the patterns, I can always go back into Maschine and edit the midi - but it is a bit of a pain going back and forth, and usually I would want to heat those midi changes in the context of the larger song within Live.

As far as simply editing Audio waveforms for individual drum tracks within Live to create new patterns/fills - do you find this fiddly/laborious or limiting in any way?

Citizen, the first method I pointed out is what I think is the easiest method that people should try first before trying to do anything too complex. I know a lot of people love using it that way with Live. Like I said, most of the time I have a finished arrangement in Maschine standalone before I export it all into a DAW for mixing. But yeah, drag and dropping directly from Maschine also works great for individually separating out each drum sound (just use solo/mute). Don't forget to have Loop Optimize checked in the Audio Export settings (even when you're not using Audio Export and just dragging directly from Maschine).

delicioso wrote:Citizen, the first method I pointed out is what I think is the easiest method that people should try first before trying to do anything too complex. I know a lot of people love using it that way with Live. Like I said, most of the time I have a finished arrangement in Maschine standalone before I export it all into a DAW for mixing.

I find doing arrangement in Maschine a nightmare. Just really slow and laboursome, Im always having to create YET ANOTHER pattern, just to make an edit in my tracks, such as a fill. How complex/simple are your arrangements? Do you do your automation in Maschine, or in your DAW?

Also, are you effectively exporting one song-length audio waveform for each sound in your project, and doing ONLY the mix down in there?

Citizen wrote:I don't suppose you could also answer my other questions that I mistakenly addressed to Cmockett? (hey, it was early!)

Well i think i kind of inadvertently answered it in a previous post. I want to create a hierarchy structure with the layered samples at the bottom and the drum bus at the top. I find it easier this way to organize the different levels of processing.

When it comes to processing the sample layers, i don't do a lot. At this level, a lot of what needs to be done involves picking the right samples. The only real processing i do involves tuning and altering the amp envelopes, with a little bit of EQing to make sure the different samples don't interfere with each other (and occasionally altering the phase, although if you're getting phasing issues then the samples you're trying to layer together are probably too similar to be of much use layered).

Thanks for your input Puzzle Factory and Delicioso - you've both given me a lot of food for thought.

Delicioso, if you could kindly answer my questions from when I last quoted you, that would be ace.

(I also just had a go at exporting ALL my stems from a basic (4 scene) arrangement, and yes, by far this is the easiest way to get your song into Live - but as I stated above, I find arranging in Maschine to be troublesome. If you could elaborate on those points above, that would be great!)

'Paging Delicioso'



(Thanks again for your input guys, I've learnt a lot)

Citizen, do you ever use Compare/Split functions in Maschine? I find it to be the fastest way to create multiple variations and it basically creates a new pattern for you based on the changes you make.

My arrangements can get quite complex with a lot of audio routing and multi-fx sequences. It all depends on the particular song of course. I do all my automation in Maschine and yes, I export the song-length arrangement as individual wavs for each sound. I might put some finishing touches or track live instruments and vocals but for the most part, it's at the mixdown stage once I'm inside a DAW.

delicioso wrote:Citizen, do you ever use Compare/Split functions in Maschine? I find it to be the fastest way to create multiple variations and it basically creates a new pattern for you based on the changes you make.

No, I always just duplicate pattern and make a variation. Maybe I should revisit the Compare/Split function - I tried it when I first got Maschine, but didn't think it of much use.

delicioso wrote:My arrangements can get quite complex with a lot of audio routing and multi-fx sequences. It all depends on the particular song of course. I do all my automation in Maschine and yes, I export the song-length arrangement as individual wavs for each sound. I might put some finishing touches or track live instruments and vocals but for the most part, it's at the mixdown stage once I'm inside a DAW.

OK that's really interesting that you feel comfortable doing complex automation in Maschine.

I find doing Automation a bit frustrating in Maschine, especially if you just want an automation parameter to continue between the end of one pattern into the next pattern/Scene - you would have to do it twice ( once for each pattern) to ensure that all the parameters at the end of the first scene match those at the start of the next one.

....or you have to create yet another pattern that is a merger of the two patterns.

Maybe I'm missing some part of the functionality? Is there a better way?

I also find it a vastly more awkward to tweak minor mistakes/ details in the automation with the mouse on the Maschine's stepped vertical automation markers vs. the more traditional linear style automation lines in Ableton.

Do you have any tips for learning to love the automation and arrangement process in Maschine? For me, these are the two areas that I feel the least amount of control In Maschine - and the reason that I export into Live (that, and mixing, of course). I just find Arrangement and Automation really laborious and fiddly in Maschine.

Sorry if these seem like really obvious questions, but I am truly amazed that someone would choose to do complex automation and an entire arrangement in Maschine.

Can't you just drag a pattern (be it midi or audio) from maschine straight into ableton? Seems that was one of the best methods for me. if I needed to change up some things just chop the audio or do it in maschine and drag that pattern into a audio track in live...

Citizen, maybe it's because I use long enough patterns for what I need but I've never run into an issue of needing to automate across scenes. There is a way to do that in Maschine though: http://www.native-instruments.com/forum ... p?t=147445 although I personally wouldn't bother with complex setups like that. Any automation across the linear timeline like that I do it in a DAW.

Citizen wrote:I also find it a vastly more awkward to tweak minor mistakes/ details in the automation with the mouse on the Maschine's stepped vertical automation markers vs. the more traditional linear style automation lines in Ableton.

I'm surprised to hear that you use the mouse with Maschine, although I realize there are people who do that probably because out of habit. I NEVER use the mouse when I use Maschine because I've always found it laborious and fiddly to be clicking around with a mouse while making music. I don't mind the mouse at all when I'm mixing in a DAW.

willdahbe wrote:Can't you just drag a pattern (be it midi or audio) from maschine straight into ableton? Seems that was one of the best methods for me. if I needed to change up some things just chop the audio or do it in maschine and drag that pattern into a audio track in live...

Yup. Dragging as audio directly from Maschine is by far the easiest way.

Just how long are your patterns then Delicioso? Maybe I'm just doing it wrong!

I usually work in patterns of 8 bar lengths, and the issue occurs if, for example, I have a longish delay/reverb on the last hit of a snare in a pattern - it will reset to zero on the first beat of the next bar.....hence my hatred of the arrange workflow in Live.

It would be really good if there was a 'merge/consolidate scenes' function - which would enable you to make two (or more) successive scenes into one, to overcome the issue that I outline above.

Re. using the mouse on automation - this would be to tweak a recording of an automation pass that was a little off - eg. a filter sweep that started too early. In Live, I would simply click on the endpoint of that filter sweep ramp and move the point. Easy. But really fiddly in Maschine - maybe it is always just best to re-record the automation until it is right - is that your method?

delicioso wrote:There is a way to do that in Maschine though: http://www.native-instruments.com/forum ... p?t=147445 although I personally wouldn't bother with complex setups like that.

Yes, I have seen that, and thought the same at the time. I did play with it, and it works - but its just another layer of complexity.

willdahbe wrote:Can't you just drag a pattern (be it midi or audio) from maschine straight into ableton? Seems that was one of the best methods for me. if I needed to change up some things just chop the audio or do it in maschine and drag that pattern into a audio track in live...

Yup. Dragging as audio directly from Maschine is by far the easiest way.[/quote]

I'm starting to see that - maybe I just need to forget the 'need' to have my midi editable right up until the last stage of my track.

Its just that I know I like to create a lot of drum edits as I go in Live: - which is MUCH easier within a single midi clip, vs. cutting + pasting drum hits in anywhere between 8-16 tracks of audio.

I also sometimes create several different versions of the arrangement - which is a very simple cut/copy/paste/drag process in Live. It would be quite a bit harder to know what is what when each track is a single audio file that runs the length of the song.

I think I will experiment with doing a whole track in Ableton, like you Delicioso, and see if these issues still bother me as much - maybe I'm just stuck in my ways.

I usually use 8 bars too but I make it longer if needed and I just re-record the automation if I need to. Maschine has actually encouraged me to rely on my ears more and maybe that's why I don't feel the need to make tedious adjustments. If I need to automate something where it needs to be precise, I just use step automation.