A lot of pros have jumped to Ableton from Logic

[jlgrimes]

Well, Pro Tools and Ableton were never in competition with each other - they serve very different purposes. Nobody expects Ableton to replace PT (or vice versa). And Daniel James doesn't use Sibelius or Finale.

And of course there are still many Logic users, but it is interesting to see a number of them (albeit from a specific user segment) moving fully to Ableton.

from what ive seen of pro-tools (i own logic and live) it seems that pro-tools and logic are more like each other (therefore more in competition with each other in a MAC vs. PC type of way), and live is kind of it's own beast. that is how i always thought of it. maybe i'm wrong? i feel like LIVE is supposed to serve a different purpose than logic and/or pro tools.....but it offers these production tools as well.
also, i would think that most pros, probably use a few different DAWs in their productions....like maybe LIVE to arrange, LOGIC to mix etc. it would be interesting to know, who actually jumped ship and produces completely in live. i know (apparently) flying lotus jumped from LOGIC to LIVE. and he has complained about how much LIVE sounds like "shit" on twitter and facebook. lol
in my HOBBYIST point of view....i haven't noticed much difference in sound between live and logic.....i expect that all of the DAWS are about the same sound wise. maybe i'm wrong?

The sound should be pretty much the same across all DAWS.

Biggest difference is workflow stuff. Which probably could affect mixing decisions.

[Machinesworking]

And Daniel James doesn't use Sibelius or Finale.

OK read up on him, I see why now. He doesn't write for live orchestras.
When you said he's an orchestral composer I thought that you meant he wrote for orchestras, and you apparently meant he uses EastWest libraries to write game and film music...

[Machinesworking]

[Machinesworking]

Personally I use Live and Digital Performer about equally.
Live is great, but the old school DAWs do things Ableton keeps on adding incrementally each upgrade, "ooh I bet Live 10 will have proper comp takes!"
Not willing to wait around for those features when DAWs are cheaper than a new guitar.

Since upgrading to Live 9 I've experienced an unacceptable number of slow starts and shut downs, crashes and weird USB issues.

However, they're not frequent enough to render Ableton unusable or unappealing.

That's disappointing to hear, I just bought a new Macbook Pro and was deciding on whether to just get the upgrade to 9 Suite and not even instal 8 Suite, but that cinches it.

[kitekrazy]

People like to treat DAWs like a religion so when someone says something against their DAW, they start holy wars. I always thought it was a bad move when a hardware company (Apple) acquires a software company. (see Tascam and Gigastudio) It's often regression instead of progression. PC users liked Logic but didn't think switching hardware was worth and also Logic as $1K app not too long after Apple took over.

[Machinesworking]

Question, is there any support with Logic?

Not after the first three to six months. The user base is pretty good though.

[beats me]

Ableton doesn't take 10 key commands or mouse clicks to do simple tasks.

This.

I’ve been using Logic almost exclusively for the last couple of years and there are things I like about it better than Live (obviously) but there are just too many clicks and drop down menus you have to access in Logic to do basic things, and routing audio and MIDI to anything other than the main track the sound is on is a nightmare.

I really hope the next release of Logic focuses on streamlining usability. It’s complexity in even basic user needs is against what Apple is all about.

[Machinesworking]

The complexity is Logic's strong point though.
For instance pre-Apple Logic had the ability to hide tracks in the Arrange Page that were not hidden in the Mixer page. This makes sense if you have Aux tracks etc. where you're not going to be doing much automation etc. This changed, now any hidden track in the Arrange page is hidden in the Mixer.... This is the worst sort of dumbing down.
Plus, if you assign a set of key commands, and make templates for the EXS etc. then no, it doesn't take ten clicks to do something that you can do in Live in one. I would argue that after you know Logic, and set it up with global key commands, screen sets, and templates, you can work much faster than in Live. This is largely due to the fact that Live still requires massive amounts of mousing, has no global key commands to speak of, and doesn't offer screen sets. Live excels at the initial stage of writing in the beginning when you have a few loops and want to flesh out the basic arrangement, but it drags when it comes to micro editing that arrangement and in general when it comes to mixing a finished track. This is largely due to the UI being designed exclusively for new users. I've mentioned this at least a dozen times since 2003 and nothing has changed this way except for more DAW features. The actual workflow of the program seems to be written in stone.

My favorite total retard move on the part of Ableton? the piano roll in Live, no way to make it go full screen except to click/drag it, PITA because folding the notes is ok for some edits not others....
Logic, DP, Cubase have zoom settings of some sort, and key commands for screen sets etc. Working with loops in Live is great fun, but editing data in Live is a lot of mousing around...
For what it's worth I rarely use Simpler, if I'm setting up a sampler it's going to be in Mach Five, if it's a quick two or three note thing I just use the sample itself directly in Live. <-more choices on how to destroy it than directly in Simpler.

[djadonis206]

I feel software companies these days are focusing on workflow rather than work product.

I can create and arrange a track much easier and faster than I could 8 years ago. However, my mixing and mastering skills still suck

[Machinesworking]

^^^ Your skills aren't as bad as you think. As long as you use that attitude as a way to give room for improvement then go ahead and think they do. Everything you put out has a polish I can't achieve.

Live isn't set up for surgical mixing and mastering. Other DAWs have advantages in those areas and honestly I hope Ableton don't try to improve those areas and keep working on performance oriented parts of Live. IMO Push is cool, but not for me.

[beats me]

Here’s something that makes no sense in Logic. You can sidechain from an audio track directly but you can’t from a MIDI track. If you want to sidechain from a MIDI track you must first send audio to a bus track and then sidechain from that track. There might be some technical chin stroker reason that is great but from a getting things done perspective it’s BS.

Don’t even get me started on effects plugins that also require MIDI input.

[jpga]

STOP.

[Machinesworking]

Here’s something that makes no sense in Logic. You can sidechain from an audio track directly but you can’t from a MIDI track. If you want to sidechain from a MIDI track you must first send audio to a bus track and then sidechain from that track. There might be some technical chin stroker reason that is great but from a getting things done perspective it’s BS.

Don’t even get me started on effects plugins that also require MIDI input.

To Logics credit, Live's absolute strong point is audio routing and the ease of MIDI routing.
It takes Max For Live to get Ableton as crazy MIDI wise as Logic though, I had a full fledged old school CV style sequencer in the Environment in Logic when I used it, and hardware all mapped out etc.

The routing in Live is a huge strong point, most DAWs have something weird going on that way, the way Logic treats MIDI with virtual instruments and FX is odd, DP simply treats them as hardware. DP has no way to restrict MIDI notes to a zone, so you can't set up in DP split keyboards with two or more instruments directly, a third party must be involved. Live does no SysEx, which for most of you is OK, but makes storing hardware sounds directly in Live impossible. There's probably some way to do it in M4L but it then becomes convoluted like the rest...

I love them all, and hate them all.

[djadonis206]

Thanks, MW! I bet Logic X steps up its "workflow" game much to the chagrin of a lot of long time Logoc users

[Tarekith]

Let's hope so, audio editing is painful compared to everything else now.