please help: session view clip automation question

[soundsliketree]

Maybe my Multimapper32MIDI device does what you want?
You can map various parameters in Live, treat them like the usual macros, save presets as well as an Init preset, which can be recalled by the press of a button. And other useful features.

Wow - nice!
I've downloaded it and am checking it out - looks very promising. Thanks for suggesting it!

[soundsliketree]

I've been trying out the Multimapper32MIDI device. Nice work!
I am having a few issues with it, though:
1) When I create clips to use as 'preset clips' by creating one-red-dot envelopes in each clip with "load preset" parameters. Then it works well to switch between sounds (macro knob configurations) with the different clips, but when I got to record a new clip the settings automatically jump to other values when the new clip begins recording. (See below for quote from other thread for explanation)
2) When I assign a knob to switch between the presets, there is a lag and crackling in the audio as the knobs move. I'm at 24% CPU with a brand new Macbook Pro, so I don't think I'm that close to overloading my machine.

I'm wondering if there's another, better way to load these presets - one that lets me record new clips with the sound I'm currently listening to and that doesn't cause crackling.

Any thoughts?

Thanks very much for the help!

If you (or any other kind souls) have a moment to try something... I've created a test set:

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/x5kipnyxaoxr ... kB9Za?dl=0

It has 1 track with an operator patch in a rack with macro knob 1 set to filter frequency. There are three clips - labeled high, medium and low - each with automation sending the macro knob to a corresponding position. The launch quantization globally is 1 bar, but the individual clips are set to none, so while playing you can press each of the clips to change the sound.

Note that without the set playing I've set the macro knob to its highest value.

Please try this test:
Start the transport and begin playing the instrument, pressing the "preset buttons" to change the sound.
Then, after having pressed the medium or low buttons, try recording a clip in the fourth slot.

My experience is that the sound stays the same until the downbeat of the recording starting whereupon it changes immediately back to the highest value.

Do you also experience this?

I'm trying to figure out whether I'm experiencing Live's intended behavior.

[NoSonic822]

if you record a new clip, it will record that automation and put red dots on the knobs....but if you just double click a new midi clip into existence...the knob values are free..they arent automated so they are at the last setting that you turned them to (in whatever non-automated clip you last changed settings in)....whatever that is....you are free to change those knobs to whatever you want....and nothing will get written to automation until you decide to record into that clip

the "real settings" of the knobs are the settings yo have them turned to in clip that doesnt have any automation in it...and this iwill change constantly as long as you are changing them without recording any automation in tot he clips

Turn off recording of Automation?

Good thought, but...
The same thing happens whether the record automation button is on or not.

I wish I understood whether this behavior is a bug or intentional. If it is intention, then what values are the knobs jumping back to? Put another way, what is required to have the settings of the knobs be "the real settings of the knobs" and not some temporary setting - especially given that there are no red boxes on any of the knob settings once the clips stop playing.

(Is it just me or is this stuff actually hard to describe?)

[soundsliketree]

If I understand you correctly, this also explains why the concept of automated clips as presets will only go so far. You can trigger clips to change the sound, and the knobs will retain their "preset-clip-altered" setting while the automated clip is playing, but as soon as you try to record a clip they bounce back to their "real" (aka non-automated clip) settings.

I guess I understand the principle behind this. I just really wish there was a preference to change the behavior to what I'm looking for: that the settings left after an automated clip plays are the "real settings" - that there's no other real settings for the knobs to jump back to - they are always at their real settings, at every moment.

if you record a new clip, it will record that automation and put red dots on the knobs....but if you just double click a new midi clip into existence...the knob values are free..they arent automated so they are at the last setting that you turned them to (in whatever non-automated clip you last changed settings in)....whatever that is....you are free to change those knobs to whatever you want....and nothing will get written to automation until you decide to record into that clip

the "real settings" of the knobs are the settings yo have them turned to in clip that doesnt have any automation in it...and this iwill change constantly as long as you are changing them without recording any automation in tot he clips

[NoSonic822]

If I understand you correctly, this also explains why the concept of automated clips as presets will only go so far. You can trigger clips to change the sound, and the knobs will retain their "preset-clip-altered" setting while the automated clip is playing, but as soon as you try to record a clip they bounce back to their "real" (aka non-automated clip) settings.

I guess I understand the principle behind this. I just really wish there was a preference to change the behavior to what I'm looking for: that the settings left after an automated clip plays are the "real settings" - that there's no other real settings for the knobs to jump back to - they are always at their real settings, at every moment.

if you record a new clip, it will record that automation and put red dots on the knobs....but if you just double click a new midi clip into existence...the knob values are free..they arent automated so they are at the last setting that you turned them to (in whatever non-automated clip you last changed settings in)....whatever that is....you are free to change those knobs to whatever you want....and nothing will get written to automation until you decide to record into that clip

the "real settings" of the knobs are the settings yo have them turned to in clip that doesnt have any automation in it...and this iwill change constantly as long as you are changing them without recording any automation in tot he clips

trust me...the more you progress at mastering Live...you will start to understand why it's programmed that way and be thankful for it, the reason you are experiencing the frustration is a phase that you will go through, i remember going through that same phase....it's because you still aren't quite using live in the best way possible..(optimal usage).you're close......but not quite there....you will figure out how to if you jkeep working at it

*you're still using the session mode in a more linear way..oldskool arrangement timeline thinking....you have to giveup that mode of song writing and become fully immersed in the session mode of song writing and song construction

[TomViolenz]

trust me...the more you progress at mastering Live...you will start to understand why it's programmed that way and be thankful for it

I guess I still need to progress more then, because I still find it a f***ing stupid way to do it.

While I clearly see the benefit of having clips as presets, where the last played preset clip determins the current settings of parameters, I have a hard time picturing that hidden mastery use case to be in any way even close to as useful.
But I'm all ears, tell me about the mastery ways, I want to be thankful too....

Just one example of a powerfull live (as in the name of the program we are using ) workflow, that this master workflow hinders.

I lock my stepsequencer on my Launchpad to a clip on my DrumRack track.
This clip I use to sequence live the drum patterns for my tracks. (so Midi notes get entered here and constantly change during my set)
But as my set changes I want to change the hits that these notes trigger. That's why I use Sampler 128s on the Drumrack pads.

Now, wouldn't it be usefull to have these different kits saved as clip presets in other clips on that track, so that I just have to trigger them to change the kits?! Well yes, that would be tremendously useful!!! But no, not in "Live", here retriggering my sequencing clip resets my kit back to some absolutely useless default kit...

[Ubik]

if you record a new clip, it will record that automation and put red dots on the knobs....but if you just double click a new midi clip into existence...the knob values are free..they arent automated so they are at the last setting that you turned them to (in whatever non-automated clip you last changed settings in)....whatever that is....you are free to change those knobs to whatever you want....and nothing will get written to automation until you decide to record into that clip

*Edit
It seems you can't use that to make presets, because it just remember the last value...

i wrote a post yesterday but my computer crashed before i could send it. So, briefly, i had tried both automat and multimapper. Basically they do the same thing but multimapper has more possibilities and midi mappable macros.
As Push is my main performance controller, the limitation i found with multimapper is that the names of the parameters are not visible on Push (only macro 1, 2 etc...). I managed to edit the device to change the name of the macro controls to show the parameters names on push but it is not dynamic, they're written in the M4L patch. At the moment if i want different macros per track, i will have to save the device under different names and edit the macro's names for each one.
The other issue i had with multimapper was to trigger the preset via midi clip, unfortunately the preset grid is not mappable. The workaround i used was to map automat to multimapper preset number box.

I also used clyphx's snap action that perfectly does the job but it i can't use it because it is messing with touchable (the names of the clips makes touchable very buggy)

[soundsliketree]

trust me...the more you progress at mastering Live...you will start to understand why it's programmed that way and be thankful for it, the reason you are experiencing the frustration is a phase that you will go through, i remember going through that same phase....it's because you still aren't quite using live in the best way possible..(optimal usage).you're close......but not quite there....you will figure out how to if you jkeep working at it

*you're still using the session mode in a more linear way..oldskool arrangement timeline thinking....you have to giveup that mode of song writing and become fully immersed in the session mode of song writing and song construction

I remember going through a phase where I thought I knew the best way to use Live...
I've been using Live since version 1, and the ways I've used it have shifted a lot throughout the years. One of the things I love about it is how open it is, and this encourages many different ways to perform and compose with it. There's no one, linear progression that people take through learning Live. That notion, if I may, is oldskool arrangement timeline thinking.

It seems to me that Live's current default behavior in this regard would be most useful for sets where a track has a "main sound" and you wanted to use automation to create variations of that main sound, but always, easily jump back to the initial settings of the main sound. In other words, this seems best when a Live set is devoted to a single track one is creating.

However, in my case, where I've got multiple, chain-selector-morphing instrument racks in my live performance set - each with many different sounds with their own settings (much like TomViolenz's drum kits example), then the default behavior is a frustrating hindrance. I think it would be great if Live had a "Macro Knob Jump" preference one could turn off and on - or at least the ability to toggle it via a script (anyone know if this is possible now, btw?). Giving the user a choice would be the best option since clearly there are folks on both sides of the fence - and some, I imagine, would like have both options available.

[mothergarage]

As Push is my main performance controller, the limitation i found with multimapper is that the names of the parameters are not visible on Push (only macro 1, 2 etc...). I managed to edit the device to change the name of the macro controls to show the parameters names on push but it is not dynamic, they're written in the M4L patch. At the moment if i want different macros per track, i will have to save the device under different names and edit the macro's names for each one.
The other issue i had with multimapper was to trigger the preset via midi clip, unfortunately the preset grid is not mappable. The workaround i used was to map automat to multimapper preset number box.

I also used clyphx's snap action that perfectly does the job but it i can't use it because it is messing with touchable (the names of the clips makes touchable very buggy)

That it's not possible to show the macro names on Push is a problem of m4l, I guess. I couldn't find a way to update the display.
The preset grid is not mappable, but the Preset/Load Preset numbox is (long name is Load Preset, maybe I should change that). I changed it from floating to int in the updated device I just uploaded.

@soundsliketree: I didn't have audio dropouts while trying to reproduce it. But maybe the set I used was too small for testing this behaviour.

[Ubik]

Thanks mothergarage.
I ended up with a working solution.
I managed to display the macro names on Push by modifying the live dials short names in the patch. The macro are names are not dynamic but for my use it's no big deal (it's a dedicated rack for my live usage). I also modified the type of the dials to match my parameters (eg : scale selector with the names of the scales).

I noticed that you can map the number in multimapper32. Actually i used you multimapper 16 device (I only use 16 macros and wanted to see them all at one time) and needed an non mappable soution. I used a part of the automat patch that allows you to get the number written in a clip name and connected it to preset to trigger the presets when i launch a clip.