I've sync'd live with 3 pc's + mpc as slave or master. The trick is to slightly adjust the latency on each app to match the hardware which is usually about 10ms. When I run Reaktor on a second machine I found it has a tempo sensitive latency so if you change tempo's you have adjust the latency in reaktor (this is assuming there is not a pro sound card setup but over 46ms latency). The latency calc is in ms so it is 60000/tempo.
I think the easiest setup is reason or cubase and live as they appear to compensate for latency and offer the song position data.
That's my 2 cents. I've spent over 2 years trying to find a common method to achieve midi sync with other artists on hardware/pcs/macs and the above methods never fail me.
-k
What's wrong with midi clock?
Thanks but I'm not talking about static latency issues - I'm talking about a slave *losing* sync to Live. The test I suggested was an attempt to find out how stable Live's midi clock output is by seeing how well slave apps can get a tempo from the midi clock. In my case I found slaves drifted out of sync in 2 situations: Logic on a mac as a slave to Live on a PC (Windows 98), or a Jam-Man as a slave to Live. Since in both cases the slaves start in sync and then drift off unuseably in about 30-45 seconds, I'm assuming it's a Live issue.
But thanks anyway...
But thanks anyway...
Hi Damon
For me - even if Live itself *isn't* globally looping, but an individaul loop is (i.e. set in clip view) - after 30-45 seconds it's *very* noticeable.
Is this the same behaviour you have?
And what system are you running?
Are you able to look at the tempo of your slave - is it jumping around up to 2bpm away form the live tempo?
Boy I hope they fix this
P.S. One thing I haven't tried yet is recording a 2 or so minute loop so I can test Live with a non-looping clip - but the thing is, for me it drifts even if the "global" loop is off...
For me - even if Live itself *isn't* globally looping, but an individaul loop is (i.e. set in clip view) - after 30-45 seconds it's *very* noticeable.
Is this the same behaviour you have?
And what system are you running?
Are you able to look at the tempo of your slave - is it jumping around up to 2bpm away form the live tempo?
Boy I hope they fix this
P.S. One thing I haven't tried yet is recording a 2 or so minute loop so I can test Live with a non-looping clip - but the thing is, for me it drifts even if the "global" loop is off...
It seems to work fine when not globally looping. I have a M-Audio USB Quattro sound card which has midi in/out and am running Windows 98SE. Unfortunately when my Korg Electribe is clocked externally it does not show tempo. But it is not drifting out even over a three or four minutes.
However as soon as loop is activated and it loops round to start again at the beginning of the bar it goes out.
However as soon as loop is activated and it loops round to start again at the beginning of the bar it goes out.
I have tested Live as master again on 4 different setups and Os's and could not reproduce this "drifting" bug.
to those who have this problem when the global loop is off :
please try to check if it works fine when using different hardware (audio and/or midi) or different samplerates/drivers/slaves/whatever... , and tell me if its somehow reproduceable. maybe it also happens only when on high cpu load or switching between applications ?
to those who have this problem only when the global loop is on :
In most cases this happens because the slave doesnt accept SongPositionPointer messages. "send SPP" or Stop/Start/Continue should be an individual option in the midipreferences to fix this problem. I am working on that.
eduard
www.ableton.com
to those who have this problem when the global loop is off :
please try to check if it works fine when using different hardware (audio and/or midi) or different samplerates/drivers/slaves/whatever... , and tell me if its somehow reproduceable. maybe it also happens only when on high cpu load or switching between applications ?
to those who have this problem only when the global loop is on :
In most cases this happens because the slave doesnt accept SongPositionPointer messages. "send SPP" or Stop/Start/Continue should be an individual option in the midipreferences to fix this problem. I am working on that.
eduard
www.ableton.com
Hi Eduard
My drift isn't linear, but the flams get steadily worse until it's like a 16th or even an 8th note after a 30-45 seconds, with or with out looping (and I'm not playing *any* clips, just comparing metronomes).
And I don't have access to a lot of different midi/audio hardware, but it's the same for me if I send the midi clock through an Oxygen8 or through an old serial midiman interface.
But if you want reproduceable symptoms - have you tried Windows 98 at about 450 mHz with an EMI 2|6 (newest drivers)? Because if you slave Logic (another fine German product!
to LIVE at say 120 bpm, the tempo display in Logic should (in rapid succession) show tempos like "117.456" or "114.125" - then every so often it shows "4325.679" (!!) or even "@EV7.654" (!!!!).
Logic doesn't do this with other midi clock masters - I know tempo is derived from beats with Midi clock, but that *CANNOT* be right...
thanks,
Brian
My drift isn't linear, but the flams get steadily worse until it's like a 16th or even an 8th note after a 30-45 seconds, with or with out looping (and I'm not playing *any* clips, just comparing metronomes).
And I don't have access to a lot of different midi/audio hardware, but it's the same for me if I send the midi clock through an Oxygen8 or through an old serial midiman interface.
But if you want reproduceable symptoms - have you tried Windows 98 at about 450 mHz with an EMI 2|6 (newest drivers)? Because if you slave Logic (another fine German product!
to LIVE at say 120 bpm, the tempo display in Logic should (in rapid succession) show tempos like "117.456" or "114.125" - then every so often it shows "4325.679" (!!) or even "@EV7.654" (!!!!).Logic doesn't do this with other midi clock masters - I know tempo is derived from beats with Midi clock, but that *CANNOT* be right...
thanks,
Brian
So I borrowed a Lexicon Jam-Man to test with: When I sync Logic to the Lexicon's midi clock, the Logic tempo bounces around, with a maximum range of maybe .25 bpm.
When I sync Logic to LIVE, the Logic tempo bounces around with a range 2-3 bpm, usually slower than the Live tempo. (and approximately 12x as much variance as with the Lexicon master). What's wierder is every second or two I see a temp of 4317 bpm or even gibberish ("@FE5"), as apparently Logic is trying to catch up. I really think the midi clock coming out of LIVE (on my setup, at least) is dirty somehow.
I'm afraid this problem is turning me into a bit of a nerd, but I need it fixed...
Brian
When I sync Logic to LIVE, the Logic tempo bounces around with a range 2-3 bpm, usually slower than the Live tempo. (and approximately 12x as much variance as with the Lexicon master). What's wierder is every second or two I see a temp of 4317 bpm or even gibberish ("@FE5"), as apparently Logic is trying to catch up. I really think the midi clock coming out of LIVE (on my setup, at least) is dirty somehow.
I'm afraid this problem is turning me into a bit of a nerd, but I need it fixed...
Brian
-
monolake
midi sync.
Dear Folks,
this seems to be a serious problem. Since i am also on the "user" side i completly understand your frustration if it works not the way it should.
But believe us, that we are trying to reproduce the problem and as soon as we can nail it down to its cause we will change it and let you know immideately. In hope to be able to deliver good news soon
Robert / Ableton
this seems to be a serious problem. Since i am also on the "user" side i completly understand your frustration if it works not the way it should.
But believe us, that we are trying to reproduce the problem and as soon as we can nail it down to its cause we will change it and let you know immideately. In hope to be able to deliver good news soon
Robert / Ableton
homerjsim :
I tried it with Win98 (PIII500) with an EMI and a Midisport 1x1 but noticed no driftings. The Emi statrs to crackle sometimes when accessing the harddisk and the sync drifts then for a moment, but after some seconds everything is fine again.
have you tried to use Live as the Master and the Lexicon as the Slave ? Would be interesting if you get the same results then.
On what hardware and Os is Logic running in your tests ?
Could you please also try to slave Logic with another software than Live with the same setup ?
Have you also tried not to use the Emi on your laptop but the build-in audiodevice ?
eduard
>
ableton
I tried it with Win98 (PIII500) with an EMI and a Midisport 1x1 but noticed no driftings. The Emi statrs to crackle sometimes when accessing the harddisk and the sync drifts then for a moment, but after some seconds everything is fine again.
have you tried to use Live as the Master and the Lexicon as the Slave ? Would be interesting if you get the same results then.
On what hardware and Os is Logic running in your tests ?
Could you please also try to slave Logic with another software than Live with the same setup ?
Have you also tried not to use the Emi on your laptop but the build-in audiodevice ?
eduard
>
ableton
Hi Eduard
"I tried it with Win98 (PIII500) with an EMI and a Midisport 1x1 but noticed no driftings. The Emi statrs to crackle sometimes when accessing the harddisk"
.... Well that's pretty close to my setup. crackling? I don't get that - I'm testing with nothing but the metronome.
Here's the thing: have you looked at the Logic Tempo compared to other midi clock masters? Then we can talk actual measureable numbers - with Live @ 120, I see Logic at 83, 104, 4167, etc. With another midi clock source, Logic never displays more thean .25 bpm off.
"have you tried to use Live as the Master and the Lexicon as the Slave ?"
....Yeah, that's how I first noticed it.
"On what hardware and Os is Logic running in your tests ?"
...On an old G3, OS 8.6 - but the point is, it behaves fine with other midiclock, so this isn't the issue.
"Could you please also try to slave Logic with another software than Live with the same setup ?"
...Oops I guess I haven't been clear - see my earlier postings, that's exactly what I *have* been doing - and again, Logic's tempo stays within .25 bpm slaving to other midiclocks.
"Have you also tried not to use the Emi on your laptop but the build-in audiodevice ?"
... I tried using the DirectX driver and it's sounding a lot tighter - and Logic's tempo is reading between 117 and 122 or so. but again the point is:
************************************************************
If the Lexicon Jam-Man can output midi clock that Logic can get to within a quarter of a BPM of, and on the same exact setup LIVE's producing 120 BPM midiclock that results in Logic tempo numbers like 83.457 and "@FE5.674", the problem is probably LIVE.... Have You Tried This Test?
***********************************************************
thanks a lot for sticking to it,
Brian
[/b]
"I tried it with Win98 (PIII500) with an EMI and a Midisport 1x1 but noticed no driftings. The Emi statrs to crackle sometimes when accessing the harddisk"
.... Well that's pretty close to my setup. crackling? I don't get that - I'm testing with nothing but the metronome.
Here's the thing: have you looked at the Logic Tempo compared to other midi clock masters? Then we can talk actual measureable numbers - with Live @ 120, I see Logic at 83, 104, 4167, etc. With another midi clock source, Logic never displays more thean .25 bpm off.
"have you tried to use Live as the Master and the Lexicon as the Slave ?"
....Yeah, that's how I first noticed it.
"On what hardware and Os is Logic running in your tests ?"
...On an old G3, OS 8.6 - but the point is, it behaves fine with other midiclock, so this isn't the issue.
"Could you please also try to slave Logic with another software than Live with the same setup ?"
...Oops I guess I haven't been clear - see my earlier postings, that's exactly what I *have* been doing - and again, Logic's tempo stays within .25 bpm slaving to other midiclocks.
"Have you also tried not to use the Emi on your laptop but the build-in audiodevice ?"
... I tried using the DirectX driver and it's sounding a lot tighter - and Logic's tempo is reading between 117 and 122 or so. but again the point is:
************************************************************
If the Lexicon Jam-Man can output midi clock that Logic can get to within a quarter of a BPM of, and on the same exact setup LIVE's producing 120 BPM midiclock that results in Logic tempo numbers like 83.457 and "@FE5.674", the problem is probably LIVE.... Have You Tried This Test?
***********************************************************
thanks a lot for sticking to it,
Brian
[/b]
whats wrong with midiclock...
on os9.2.2. the only midi interface we found, who works kind of correctly is the midisport 1x1, the midisport 2x2 is already not working correctly. i'm talking only from incoming midisignals, outgoing no problem... i think....
homerjsim :
you cannot really compare the miditiming of an old P3 laptop running Windows 98 with the timing of midihardware or a Mac. PC's might be generally faster and cheaper than macs, but one big disadvantage is that you will never archieve rock solid miditiming. try to run Logic as master with your setup and you will see that the timing will be as bad as with Live as master. this explains of course only the jitter, but not the drifting. I'm still not sure how this drifting could happen with your configuration. seems that some midimessages get lost ...
dustbowl:
what means "works not correctly" exactly in your case ?
you cannot really compare the miditiming of an old P3 laptop running Windows 98 with the timing of midihardware or a Mac. PC's might be generally faster and cheaper than macs, but one big disadvantage is that you will never archieve rock solid miditiming. try to run Logic as master with your setup and you will see that the timing will be as bad as with Live as master. this explains of course only the jitter, but not the drifting. I'm still not sure how this drifting could happen with your configuration. seems that some midimessages get lost ...
dustbowl:
what means "works not correctly" exactly in your case ?