Ableton Forum

I got Live 2 from ebay for $130, and upgraded to 4 (5 when it's out) for another $119. Make sure you buy an original copy tho (obviously) with the license number that a) isn't an upgrade, and b) hasn't been upgraded from already. Other than that, Ableton will happily transfer ownership of the license, there's info elsewhere on the site about the rules for this. If you are on a budget, it's the best way. I did the same for reason, cost me about £100 to buy an old version an upgrade, saving me between £100 and £200 depending on where you buy the full version from.

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/control ... ype=search


[whistling]

braj wrote:$499 is straight from Ableton, but most retailers have it for $399. My point is, if you buy Live4 now you get a free upgrade to Live5. So go ahead and find your deal and Live5 will be free. Of course, I'm not sure you could get 5 free if you buy it off ebay etc. I'm sure it needs to be from a official retailer or something. Email Ableton and ask, but you can definitely beat their price.

Well that's what I was looking for! I wasn't aware that other retailers had it for less. I've only ever seen it at $499. I'll check into it, stat!

anarchicluv wrote:Well that's what I was looking for! I wasn't aware that other retailers had it for less. I've only ever seen it at $499. I'll check into it, stat!

This place has Live 4 for $329. And, of course, upgrade to Live 5 is then free.

http://www.floridamusicco.com/proddetai ... ner=google

Back to the original subject of Live VS Logic etc, for dance music. I have Live 4 and Logic 7.1. Logic beats the crap out of live for efficient CPU use, embedded plug ins, key commands, and MIDI editing.

What Live brings to the table that makes it valuable at all is Session View. Arranging audio files and clips, basically composing with snips instead of on a linear timeframe but in a more mix and cut and paste way is absolutely the best.

Simpler, Impulse, and Operator etc. however have NOTHING on the list of Plug ins for Logic Pro. Personally I can't stand embedded plug ins, I want to be able to take my presets and sample sets between Logic and Live if necessary without having to burn to audio, so I mainly use third party soft synths and FX.

Even Express has much better MIDI editing than Live 4, and honestly, from what I've read 5 didn't do too much to improve that situation. I write anything that is in straight 4/4 in Live, but if it's in some weird time signature, and I'm not able to figure out what I wrote without serious editing to make sure it's not just sloppy playing... Live doesn't hold a candle to Logic. It ends up taking MUCH longer, and that's a pity IMO.

Dance music wise it's a hard call. I would say Live if you want to re-arrange your songs on the fly like a DJ, and Logic if you're talking about some serious editing and perfecting of elements within a song.
Basically you want a more DJ Spooky type sound, go with Live, for a VNV Nation thing, go with Logic.

I just soiled my pants! Thanks to all of you who responded on this thread, in about 5 hours, I will be the proud owner of Live 4 (and be able to get a free upgrade to Live 5 when it's released!!) Thank you all!

It's a pleasure anarchicluv, and welcome to the wacky world of Ableton Live

Now be a good fellow and go change your underwear

for what its worth I use Cubase SX & Live... I prefer live for writing tracks, getting a vibe / tune going and just its simplicity & ease of use. Cubase feels better for mixing in some respects and if I want to get down to some kind of complex editing, SX feels better for this as well. For example in SX you can click a certain part of the waveform & apply processing to just that part, so you could go along putting say a different FX on every 16th in a bar to get a certain sound.

Saying all that the last 4 tracks I made where totally in Live 4 and now 5 has PDC ill probably be keeping a lot of then in Live 5, instead of porting them over to SX to mix.

I think its good to have a program like Logic / SX + something like Ableton.. they both have their strong & weak points, but I suppose at the end of the day they are all just sequencers.

Machinesworking wrote:Back to the original subject of Live VS Logic etc, for dance music. I have Live 4 and Logic 7.1. Logic beats the crap out of live for efficient CPU use, embedded plug ins, key commands, and MIDI editing.

Well, the original question was in reference to Logic Express ($299) not Logic 7.1 ($999 )

Machinesworking wrote: Simpler, Impulse, and Operator etc. however have NOTHING on the list of Plug ins for Logic Pro. Personally I can't stand embedded plug ins, I want to be able to take my presets and sample sets between Logic and Live if necessary without having to burn to audio, so I mainly use third party soft synths and FX.

From what I gather about Operator, it can create just about any damn sound you can imagine. It seems to be as infinite and deep as Live itself is. Plus, you can still use all sorts of 3rd party plugins with Live 5, so that shouldn't be an issue.

Machinesworking wrote: Even Express has much better MIDI editing than Live 4, and honestly, from what I've read 5 didn't do too much to improve that situation. I write anything that is in straight 4/4 in Live, but if it's in some weird time signature, and I'm not able to figure out what I wrote without serious editing to make sure it's not just sloppy playing... Live doesn't hold a candle to Logic. It ends up taking MUCH longer, and that's a pity IMO.

I can't say much here. Though I have seen in posts on the board that Live 5 has improved the MIDI editing. Can anyone confirm this?

Well one improvement I really like in Live 5's MIDI editor is the ability to hear/preview the notes as you input them (or not - it's switchable). I find that ... erm ... simply better!

But within the next few days the beta is going completely public, so you can all see for yourselves

headquest wrote:Well one improvement I really like in Live 5's MIDI editor is the ability to hear/preview the notes as you input them (or not - it's switchable). I find that ... erm ... simply better!

But within the next few days the beta is going completely public, so you can all see for yourselves

That's a HUGE improvement and the only major issue I have with 4's midi editing.

anarchicluv wrote:Well, the original question was in reference to Logic Express ($299) not Logic 7.1 ($999 )

Regardless, the plug ins still are better in Express.

From what I gather about Operator, it can create just about any damn sound you can imagine. It seems to be as infinite and deep as Live itself is.

OK this is your first DAW huh? Have you ever used a hardware synthesizer? My guess is no.
Let's just say you'll be REALLY disappointed in Operator if you expect that much from it. The demo of Live 4 is just like the copy I have, it just won't let you save songs. You should download it. Also, just for fun, you can download a demo copy of FM7, which is in the same category of FM synthesis as Operator, but better IMO. Much more CPU efficient for one.

Plus, you can still use all sorts of 3rd party plugins with Live 5, so that shouldn't be an issue.

Exactly!

I can't say much here. Though I have seen in posts on the board that Live 5 has improved the MIDI editing. Can anyone confirm this?

OK why are you wanting to argue? You asked for our opinions, and I gave you mine. I like and use both Logic and Live, I've kept up on the improvements MIDI wise that LIve 5 brings, and it still doesn't sound to me like I'll be working in Live 100% of the time.

You probably would be better off with Live than Logic anyway, Logic has been designed by engineers from an engineers stand point. You can either love or hate that, but if you don't have the knowledge of MIDI flow necessary to wrap your head around Logic, it will just piss you off. Hell it pisses me off sometimes!

There are other things, Logic's EXS sampler is about as CPU efficient as it gets, I can get 16 instances running on my 800mhz powerbook, compared to 5 instances of Kontact in Live 4. That is a major selling point for me.

Anyway good luck with Live.

That's a HUGE improvement and the only major issue I have with 4's midi editing.

I have plenty, if you have used a DAW like Logic or Digital Performer for MIDI editing, then use LIve, you really see a contrast in focus. Live just isn't that focused on the editing of MIDI. the window is small, has no key commands to open it up, and the simple moving of MIDI notes in the editor is touchy to say the least. Select multiple notes and try dragging them, you can easily erase them, or deselect them. There are other things. I still use it sometimes, I like writing in Live, but it's definitely less advanced MIDI wise than Logic.

Machinesworking wrote:OK this is your first DAW huh? Have you ever used a hardware synthesizer? My guess is no.
Let's just say you'll be REALLY disappointed in Operator if you expect that much from it. The demo of Live 4 is just like the copy I have, it just won't let you save songs. You should download it. Also, just for fun, you can download a demo copy of FM7, which is in the same category of FM synthesis as Operator, but better IMO. Much more CPU efficient for one.

Actually, yes, I've used an outboard synth before. Have you seen the video demonstrations of Operator on Ableton's site? If not, check them out, I think they demonstrate fairly well that Operator is much more than just an FM synth. And they barely had time to touch on the basics of Operator in the 30 minute video. But, I reserve the right to be totally full of shit.

Machinesworking wrote: OK why are you wanting to argue? You asked for our opinions, and I gave you mine. I like and use both Logic and Live, I've kept up on the improvements MIDI wise that LIve 5 brings, and it still doesn't sound to me like I'll be working in Live 100% of the time.

Woah, woah, woah..let's back up. I'm not at all trying to argue with you. I value your opinions; you seem like you know your shit. I'm just talkin' here, working out stuff so I can gain some more knowledge. Truly, much love for the help you've offered up here!

anarchicluv wrote:Actually, yes, I've used an outboard synth before. Have you seen the video demonstrations of Operator on Ableton's site? If not, check them out, I think they demonstrate fairly well that Operator is much more than just an FM synth. And they barely had time to touch on the basics of Operator in the 30 minute video. But, I reserve the right to be totally full of shit.

Sorry, didn't mean to sound patronizing.

Operator is nice, but I wasn't that impressed with it. I'm a bit over the top when it comes to soft synths though.... Zebra, Filterscape, Automat, Reactor 5, Absynth 3, Pro 53, FM7, Kontact, Intact, Microrock Pro, everything in Logic Pro- ES1, ES2, Sculpture, Reason 2.5, PPG Wave, Crystal, Battery 2.. not including Garriton Personal Orchestra and other instrument emulators.....

Operator sounds to me like the FM7, and honestly I played them side by side, and liked the sound of FM7 better, your results may vary though.

Woah, woah, woah..let's back up. I'm not at all trying to argue with you. I value your opinions; you seem like you know your shit. I'm just talkin' here, working out stuff so I can gain some more knowledge. Truly, much love for the help you've offered up here!

Sorry again !:oops: Realize if you and me were talking in the same room, you would realize I'm not trying to sound huffy. It's just a given that on a board dedicated to Live, you are going to get people telling you that Live is much better, I'm trying to say that regardless of popular "single DAW forum" opinion, there is no true superior product when you start comparing features. Each has it's advantage.

For instance in some respects Logic Express with FM7 is a better choice than Live 5 with Operator, but you won't be hearing many people here say that beyond me.

I think if you have a fast computer, and work well with a few soft synths, then Live is a better choice. I do for the most part, maybe 4-7 synths and samplers tops, and I'll probably be writing in Live more once I get 5, the freeze function seems like the best I've heard of.

Anyway DOWNLOAD THE DEMO!!! I think you'll be happier in Live for sure!

but don't rule out a traditional DAW if you find yourself feeling like the editing isn't what you want. I have doubts as to when Live will get to SX3, DP, or Logic level in editing. Certain simple work flow things that would gear it towards that have simply never been introduced. This would be the third version I've seen personally that still doesn't have a simple key command to close the browser window for instance.