Ableton Forum

EnemyofSilence wrote:I'd venture to say that for your setup the preamps are less important than the quality of the converters, and especially the clock of whatever unit you buy. The 2 pre's and the converters on the Apollo are really good, and with unison can get some awesome sounds - use those for microphones or if you're recording guitar direct. It sounds like the extra inputs are really needed for your keys, and don't need more mic preamps.

But while the Apollo twin has the ADAT input, when used, it has to be synced to the incoming signal (slaved)- it has no way to be a master clock to an external device. Slaving the Apollo to a crappy clock (ala the Behringer) will adversely effect everything going thru the Twin, even via the mic pre's. I have an older ADA8000, and it's ok-ish for line level signals it it's slaved to a good clock. As a master, no. And with the Twin, there's no way around it.

ya don't have to go nuts with it, but I'd stay away from the Behringer for this. I've used my older Presonus Digimax LT with the twin, and it's fine. I've also used a Motu 828 Mk2 as a digital mixer, sending via ADAT to the Twin. It's not an Apogee, but it works quite well. You can probably pick something like that up for a couple hundred, used.

Food for thought

Thanks for your input, much appreciated.
I don't know anything about clocks. If you have the time, it would be great if you could explain what makes the Behringer clock crappy. Thanks.

dafeda wrote:So I did a bit of research and of course there are tons of options.
How much difference is there between preamps?
I mean, if I get the Behringer ADA8200 and record my guitar or vocals through
it instead of the Apollo Twin, would I be totally disgusted by the quality?
I like the price of the Behringer stuff, but I won't get it if its
preamps are much worse than the Apollo Twin's.
Would be great to do a blind test of preamps, i suspect that I would fail miserably

Thanks.

I wish Behringer would post their specs but I wouldn't think it would be that bad. I think the bigger issue with Behringer is stability.


If you don't go with the Behringer, the next device that offers something similar is the Presonus Digimax and it is preamps only unlike Behringer which has preamps, line inputs, instrument inputs all in one.

Have you thought about just getting a mixer?

dafeda wrote:
Thanks for your input, much appreciated.
I don't know anything about clocks. If you have the time, it would be great if you could explain what makes the Behringer clock crappy. Thanks.

Essentially it has to do with the sampling frequency stability. The Analog to Digital Converts (ADC's) and DAC's should be completely consistent, in an ideal world. The problem arises with something called 'jitter', which is fluctuations in the sampling frequency/clock. It causes inaccuracies, and thus distortion.

When connecting 2 or more digital audio interfaces, spdif, ADAT, etc, the converter clocks of the 2 devices need to by in sync so the digital information passes correctly (you'd hear horrible noises/distortion if they're not sync'd).

If you look in the settings for the Twin, you'll see a reference to clock source - and the options are internal (which is using the Twins converters as the clock master) and ADAT / SPDIF (depending if you've set the mode for the optical to one or the other). Using the Adat as the clock source, the Twin's converters will be in sync with the external clock. If that has jitter, the Twin will reflect that as well - including on it's on ADC's.

Since the Twin has no digital output, it has no means of sending it's clock reference to another device directly. So the Behringer can't slave to it, it must be the master. The converters in the Behringer are not going to be as high quality, jitter 'free' as the Twin's. Sound with pass from the Behringer to the twin error free, but the twin's on input and output converters are subject to any jitter imposed by the external clock source.

Hope this helps. Welcome to the world of digital clocks!

Tarekith wrote:Have you thought about just getting a mixer?

LOL. Literally.

Tarekith wrote:Have you thought about just getting a mixer?

Hah, probably a good idea

EnemyofSilence wrote:

dafeda wrote:
Thanks for your input, much appreciated.
I don't know anything about clocks. If you have the time, it would be great if you could explain what makes the Behringer clock crappy. Thanks.

Essentially it has to do with the sampling frequency stability. The Analog to Digital Converts (ADC's) and DAC's should be completely consistent, in an ideal world. The problem arises with something called 'jitter', which is fluctuations in the sampling frequency/clock. It causes inaccuracies, and thus distortion.

When connecting 2 or more digital audio interfaces, spdif, ADAT, etc, the converter clocks of the 2 devices need to by in sync so the digital information passes correctly (you'd hear horrible noises/distortion if they're not sync'd).

If you look in the settings for the Twin, you'll see a reference to clock source - and the options are internal (which is using the Twins converters as the clock master) and ADAT / SPDIF (depending if you've set the mode for the optical to one or the other). Using the Adat as the clock source, the Twin's converters will be in sync with the external clock. If that has jitter, the Twin will reflect that as well - including on it's on ADC's.

Since the Twin has no digital output, it has no means of sending it's clock reference to another device directly. So the Behringer can't slave to it, it must be the master. The converters in the Behringer are not going to be as high quality, jitter 'free' as the Twin's. Sound with pass from the Behringer to the twin error free, but the twin's on input and output converters are subject to any jitter imposed by the external clock source.

Hope this helps. Welcome to the world of digital clocks!

Given that I understand what you are saying, this is something that should be measurable. Are there any numbers I can look at in the gear specs? Is it expensive to make a proper clock?

http://www.pro-tools-expert.com/home-pa ... ls-on.html

ignore the Pro-Tools bit, it's irrelevant here.