Suite or Standard + 3rd Party

[jestermgee]

With the right processing, Live instruments can sound really good. I'm one that simply doesn't like to have features or possibilities missing so will often shell out just to have the tool in the box but I don't really use much of what is in Live unless I force myself to dig in. I have disposable income just for this kind of thing though so if I were pressed to place money in the right spot I would probably opt for Standard over Suit given how much I actually use the content.

There is a lot of good sounds in there, lots of loops and beats ready for cutting up and doing cool things with and then M4L seems a really nice feature but I have rarely explored that in fear of it making things unstable for me or something being unsupported down the track and breaking a project. What kind of puts me off live instruments is the tiny interface squeezed into the rack. I like the low CPU usage and tight integration and Push certainly makes them much easier to use but give me a nice GUI with clear controls I can see out the corner of my eye (and place on one of my other monitors!!!) any day.

[smutek]

Another option to consider is if you're going to use Push eventually or not. There's a lot of deeper integration with the Suite effects and instruments than with 3rd party options.

I think you should open a separate discussion on that. I haven't noticed this "deeper integration". Feels more or less the same to me.

Eh? Have you not even turned your Push on yet?

** edit - sorry, I just saw this -

I realize this is likely a Push 2 display thing. I'm still on the original.

Still, on Push 1 there's also preset browsing and audio previews. It's pretty huge if you're looking to get the computer out of the way.

[TomKern]

I'd go:

Standard + 3rd party
OR
Suite + 3rd party.

Even if you listen to Ableton wizards on youtube, all the ableton instruments sound bad. But as soon as they use 3rd party instruments, it sounds good. I regret spending a lot of time with Ableton instruments. Too hard to go back and swap all those instruments out, so it was a waste of time.

I have to severely disagree on this and highly question the value of these "youtube wizards".
There is almost no sound that you can't make with Operator and while it might not be the most fancy looking synth out there, it teaches you FM synthesis much better than most of the "youtube wizards" will probably ever understand.

That said.
Having Suite is nice and I'm glad I do, but I also clearly see the case for Standard + 3rd party.
BUT this is only now true after many years spend in music production and knowing which 3rd party vsts are worth getting. If you don't know that yet, there is a lot of stuff that is much worse than Suite that you could spend the extra money on.

[Stromkraft]

I'd go:

Standard + 3rd party
OR
Suite + 3rd party.

Even if you listen to Ableton wizards on youtube, all the ableton instruments sound bad. But as soon as they use 3rd party instruments, it sounds good. I regret spending a lot of time with Ableton instruments. Too hard to go back and swap all those instruments out, so it was a waste of time.

I have to severely disagree on this and highly question the value of these "youtube wizards".
There is almost no sound that you can't make with Operator and while it might not be the most fancy looking synth out there, it teaches you FM synthesis much better than most of the "youtube wizards" will probably ever understand.

That said.
Having Suite is nice and I'm glad I do, but I also clearly see the case for Standard + 3rd party.
BUT this is only now true after many years spend in music production and knowing which 3rd party vsts are worth getting. If you don't know that yet, there is a lot of stuff that is much worse than Suite that you could spend the extra money on.

Quoting myself:

Subject: Getting a full synth sound in Ableton Live 9 Suite

"If you put the virtually identical, very basic patch programmed in Operator against certain third party synthesizers you can only cry. That is, One oscillator (or 2 Operators with one as carrier) and one filter, nothing else. Do this in an honest, thourough way and Operator will fade as an option very quickly. The new filter possibilities of 9.5 certainly is an upgrade though.

This doesn't mean it's useless. But I wholeheartedly feel it's a waste of time as anything else than a learning tool or if you accept its limitations and work from that. If you make brilliant stuff you will sound good with anything".

I realize this is, as I've previously hinted in this thread, a matter of taste. But also newbies have taste and can quite often hear the differences until they persuade themselves they can't as people keep mentioning that they can't. Everyone's ride is different and each budding producer, in the bedroom or the studio, should make up their own minds by listening.

To me, because of my taste, Operator was a great waste of time in many ways. When I had learned myself Operator I then had to relearn how to do similar patches in FM8, Dexed (free) and Z3TA+ 2 as I was dissatisfied with how Operator sounded in mixes. That's of course not a bad experience to make. Learn from everything.

I still use Operator for quick mockups, but when I replace it and remake a similar sound in one of my other tools I always realize why I'd want to do that in the first place.

What do you think about the value of Live Suite vs. Live Standard and using the $250 or so difference to invest in VSTs or other loops and plugins…

if there's some truth to this, is investing in 3rd party stuff the better option? If so, what are the top contenders??

It's your taste. None of us others can tell you what to like. Listen to demos and especially to the free stuff out there. Dexed, u-he TyrellN6, u-he Zebralette are all great and free alternatives you can try right now and learn something from on what you like. There are more free ones out there too.

To learn how to listen is an important step, creating without fear and not caring about whether your tracks sound like s**t is another. Only trough this practical process comes real understanding. If nothing else if one views Suite and its synths as a way to get going making music, which I'd suspect is how it has been constructed, then it can be both a great tool and an asset. Make up your own mind, with your ears. If you like what you hear in demos, go for it.

There's also the aspect of the vast library you get with Suite. It's both a god send and a hindrance. It does take some time to get into, so a good idea would be to choose only 2 synths to work with and focus on these. Which ones? Use your ears and listen to the demo material. Move quickly and just absorb it all from some lust principle. i e let it feel good. Music making is about fun and magic I think. That's my guiding principle anyway.

[Angstrom]

on Push 1 there's also preset browsing and audio previews. It's pretty huge if you're looking to get the computer out of the way.

Surely those previews are only available on factory content, and not on OUR OWN content.
I've never heard an audio preview because I dont use stock Ableton presets. So for me that is not an advantage over VSTs, as the feature currently stands.

[smutek]

Surely those previews are only available on factory content, and not on OUR OWN content.
I've never heard an audio preview because I dont use stock Ableton presets. So for me that is not an advantage over VSTs, as the feature currently stands.

That's correct, factory content only, and as far as I know there's not a way to save your own previews either.