Please Bring Back playback head scrubbing!

logman · Post by **logman** » Thu Jul 07, 2005 5:51 am

Musolomo comes to mind: it has Bo, scratch and Digiskip.... no luck with this one for PCs users at this stage.

quandry · Post by **quandry** » Fri Jul 08, 2005 12:45 pm

Here's a rambling update on this issue. First off, apparently something was wacked out in version 8 (or was it 9)--the scrubbing did not work as it should have in session view. Without a doubt, the clip must be put into RAM mode to scrub at all in the session veiw--oddly enough, RAM isn't neccessary for arrangement scrubbing--this seems like an error to me. So at least now I have got it working and have tried out the new behavior, which is closer to 3 and 4 than my initial complaints (again, there was something wack in 8, and RAM MUST be enabled). Another thing was that using "none" for global quantize is not the same as "1/32" for global quantize...even with RAM enabled the session and arranger clips had very noticable skipping that was unpleasant when using "none". It scrubbed a bit more believably but for the noise, but when you hold your mouse in place, it does indeed do the incessantly repeating 1/32 notes over and over. My notes on all of this new clip behaviour:

If we take the analog tape or vinyl on a turntable as the ideal paradigm to shoot for (I for one do, though others may disagree), both of those meduims rely on mechanical propulsion of a media. Thus, the creative manipulations of said media by countless DJ and performers actually utilizes the steady forward charge of the tape head and turntable as part of the sound. Live 2 and 3 did a great job of this in the ability to scrub a clip in clip view with the mouse, while it steadily rolled forward. In 3 holding the mouse in place amount to taking your hand off the turntable. In 5, holding the mouse in place results in a stutter that is indelibly linked to the global quantize--holding it in place results in repeating that part of the clip over and over at whatever interval (1/16, 1/32,...)global quantize is set to...even "none" is actually 1/32. Sure if you let go of the mouse or knob, it keeps playing, but even with a lot of hopeful practice, I find 5 nowhere near as fluid as the behavior of 3. The repeated stutters are a cool addition, but to try to accomplish some of the moves I can do in 3 while using 5, I find it amounting to a crazy incessant mouse clicking fest, where I still can't seem to get it to release fast enough.

My main critiques on this whole new paradigm, which drastically changed my favorite feature of 3 are:

1. The RAM: session vs. arranger issue discussed above is wack...

2. Having the clip scrub quantized indelibly tied to the global quantize is NOT helpful in many ways. Want to have different clips loaded is a set that have different inherent scrub quantized values (obviously a very useful use of the new scrubbing behavior)--too bad. Do you use the global quantized set to bar because you actually record live loops using instruments, or do you use "bar" to make sure all of your clips come in on time?--changing it does NOT sound desirable, as most performers have a consistent setting for that which dictates the behavior of all sorts of other aspects of Live. With 5, this "global" setting is now used to effect the behavior of a clip. Doesn't it seem much more wise to have the clips, the basic building blocks of a session set, have their own unique scrub values that you can set for each individual clip,? This as opposed to having to constanly change the global quantize to get different scrub effects for different sounding clips, then changing it to affect the clip recording quantization, then changing it to effect various other aspects of Live???

3. A favorite aspect of 3 behaviour is slamming the arrow to the left to put the clip back in time (didn't I learn that from the manual?). Now, even with extremely fast mouse clicking or turn and release of midi knob, that slamming back on the one thing does not work.

Suggestions:

A. Make the new behaviour when the mouse is held in place optional. Yeah, the stuttering repeating quantized notes can be a cool effect, but not worth the price of addmission to me since the new release issue messes up both the slamming on the one and the fluidity of the scrubbing--it is not true to the tape/vinyl paradigm (or at leasts adds an extra, time-consuming step of releasing the mouse). The new stuff is cool, I'm sure some like it better, but changing the bread-and-butter feature to something much different should ideally come as a little optional button in clip view--call it "stutter"--turn it on, you get 5 behavior, turn it off, get 3 behavior. Or maybe something more likely to happen before 5 is released (okay I'm dreaming) could be that setting global quantize to "none" results in 3-like behavior (i.e. no rythmic stutters).

B. Make the clip scrub quantize a clip setting, not linked to global. Maybe have clips assigned the global quantize setting when they are recorded/imported, but then allow the setting to be changedon a per clip basis.

C. Fix the RAM issue, which wasn't even an issue in 3, RAM could help a bit, but even non-RAM session clips scrub beautifully.

Ryan

supster · Post by **supster** » Fri Jul 08, 2005 3:04 pm

quandry wrote:. With 5, this "global" setting is now used to effect the behavior of a clip. Doesn't it seem much more wise to have the clips, the basic building blocks of a session set, have their own unique scrub values that you can set for each individual clip,?

This as opposed to having to constanly change the global quantize to get different scrub effects for different sounding clips, then changing it to affect the clip recording quantization, then changing it to effect various other aspects of Live???

yes - along with the fact that the functionality is preventing important teqnuiques - this is a glaring problem with this new paradigm.

the global quantize should not control the scrub value of the clip. this needs to be controlled by the quant value of the clip.
.

Pitch Black · Post by **Pitch Black** » Fri Jul 08, 2005 4:41 pm

supster wrote:
the global quantize should not control the scrub value of the clip. this needs to be controlled by the quant value of the clip.
.

hear hear!

brothers, our revolutionary cabal is going to have to wait until the abe's self-imposed moritorium on new feature comments has run its course. they're currently under a state of neither-confirm-or-deny discussions of new features. we'll have to wait paitently. there is a disturbance in the force centered around schonhauser allee. i thiiiiiiinnnk they're about to pinch this one off...

vee vait and zen vee ambush zem vizz our demants, yes?

Angstrom · Post by **Angstrom** » Fri Jul 08, 2005 4:44 pm

Although I am not on the beta, I do remember one of the abes mentioning adding this global-quantize-jumping (!) as response to a bug. It was beta 2 ish ? Abe = Stefan possibly.

I cant find the exact post though

-----------------------------------------------------------------
Improvements
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Scrubbing and nudging always uses global quantization, even if the clip's launch quantization is not set to "global".

http://www.ableton.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=21511&

also - the begining of the end for scrubbing? >>
http://www.ableton.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=21108&

I think that the previous method was good, but could have actually been improved as a performance method... sadly it has been removed instead.
Often with the old method it was a bit too random for live use, great for studio improv stuff - but needed me to edit it.

I quite like the idea of using my midi keyboard as an input for the start marker so c1 = beat 1, c#1 = beat 2 , that way I could have a real sense of where I would be jumping the beat to.

is this possible in the beta?

supster · Post by **supster** » Sat Jul 09, 2005 2:17 am

Pitch Black wrote: they're currently under a state of neither-confirm-or-deny discussions of new features.

understandable, we know where they're at and want them to polish up what they have and make it solid for realease

i also think the beta test period is just as important for them to get feedback on the changes and if something is not working as a result of a design decision ... if its important enough .. they should reconsider and modify before release

i definitely believe this qualifies as important enough. its a vital feature that was broken by new functionality
.

DJRetard · Post by **DJRetard** » Sat Jul 09, 2005 11:09 am

WE SHOULD COMPLAIN.

Personally Its a great shame that this obviously well used feature has been binned in the name of progress.

BRING THIS FEATURE BACK. IT SHOULD NOT BE A FUTURE REQUEST. It was already there.

peeddrroo · Post by **peeddrroo** » Sat Jul 09, 2005 12:03 pm

quandry wrote:I have pretty much stopped playing with 5 because its a tease, I use that feature almost every song in performances

hey ryan, you're supposed to have entered the beta testing to hunt bugs, not to have fun

...

anyway, i'm with you on this one. i feel Live has lost a bit of it's magic (though thr magic can be found elsewhere in L5). but this feature really made it unique...

quandry · Post by **quandry** » Sat Jul 09, 2005 3:27 pm

supster wrote: i also think the beta test period is just as important for them to get feedback on the changes and if something is not working as a result of a design decision ... if its important enough .. they should reconsider and modify before release

i definitely believe this qualifies as important enough. its a vital feature that was broken by new functionality
.

well put, seems many of us who have been around since the days of 2 are in total agreement here. The Abletons should take note. I hate to sound like a whiner, and many new aspects of 5 are killer, but sadly I can't justify buying 5 to have it sit on my desktop (like 4 did due to the requiring of using "ctrl" for scrub jumping) while I continue to practice and perform with 3. I just wish I could at least use the new effects and track width variability in 3

Ryan

supster · Post by **supster** » Sun Jul 10, 2005 5:07 am

More on this issue ... ableton please take note, because i dont see how this cant affect a lot of people ...

I'm running into another related issue with the start marker being unlinked from the start point of the clip.

Namely, when creating scenes in session view ... im encountering clips that are not in sych with the scene

ie. i'm coming acrost clips on the grid, where the start marker is on 1.1.1 .. but red dot is on say 6.1.3. or, the start marker is on 5.1.1 randomly.

i cant say yet if this is a bug or whether its part of the functionality that is confusing. but either way it comes back to the same issue:

- start marker is not neccessarily where the clip is "firing" from

- its very easy to get the two out of synch .. for a number of reasons .. way too easy

- global quanitzation is determining quantization of the start marker when everything intuitive tells you that clip quantization should be controlling it

altogther this is a recipe for lots of confusion and potential disaster because of this design decision. imo. i dont think theres any easy solution at this point but i really hope you guys are reading this and its being discussed at least ...
.

serotoninsteve · Post by **serotoninsteve** » Sun Jul 10, 2005 10:09 am

supster wrote:More on this issue ... ableton please take note, because i dont see how this cant affect a lot of people ...

I'm running into another related issue with the start marker being unlinked from the start point of the clip.

Namely, when creating scenes in session view ... im encountering clips that are not in sych with the scene

ie. i'm coming acrost clips on the grid, where the start marker is on 1.1.1 .. but red dot is on say 6.1.3. or, the start marker is on 5.1.1 randomly.

i cant say yet if this is a bug or whether its part of the functionality that is confusing. but either way it comes back to the same issue:

- start marker is not neccessarily where the clip is "firing" from

- its very easy to get the two out of synch .. for a number of reasons .. way too easy

- global quanitzation is determining quantization of the start marker when everything intuitive tells you that clip quantization should be controlling it

altogther this is a recipe for lots of confusion and potential disaster because of this design decision. imo. i dont think theres any easy solution at this point but i really hope you guys are reading this and its being discussed at least ...
.

I think this is perhaps the same problem:

http://www.ableton.com/forum/viewtopic. ... 94f39a1170

If this is something of a new feature, then perhaps one of the abes could perhaps give us a description on how this behaves, especially with the red dot?

Greetings

supster · Post by **supster** » Sun Jul 10, 2005 3:58 pm

serotoninsteve wrote:I think this is perhaps the same problem:

http://www.ableton.com/forum/viewtopic. ... 94f39a1170

If this is something of a new feature, then perhaps one of the abes could perhaps give us a description on how this behaves, especially with the red dot?

good ... thank you, yes thats exactly what it is happening. this has to be a bug because it destroys the abiltity to play Live with scenes in session, the whole rythmic foundation of your song changes with those start points moving around.

dont want to pirate this thread though - the issue is related to the start marker being unlinked from the playhead ... and thats why i brought it up here ..
.
.

supster · Post by **supster** » Sun Jul 10, 2005 4:03 pm

a solution to this just occurred to me:

what about a global "Link Playpos to Start Marker" switch ... with a hotkey.

so you could temporarily switch back to the old way on the fly - grab the Playpos with the mouse and DRAG it where you want to ... or playhead scrub / CTRL-Click around to create variations with it the way we do now

its an over-ride. that would do it. it could really use a visual indicator of off/on (like the follow or draw tool switches) but for now a hotkey is enough.

PLEASE consider this ableton.
.

Martyn · Post by **Martyn** » Sun Jul 10, 2005 4:13 pm

supster wrote:a solution to this just occurred to me:

what about a global "Link Playpos to Start Marker" switch ... with a hotkey.

so you could temporarily switch back to the old way on the fly - grab the Playpos with the mouse and DRAG it where you want to ... or playhead scrub / CTRL-Click around to create variations with it the way we do now

its an over-ride. that would do it. it could really use a visual indicator of off/on (like the follow or draw tool switches) but for now a hotkey is enough.

PLEASE consider this ableton.
.

Yeah! Always best to have BOTH features, i can't see the point in taking anything away and replacing it with an alternative, not when so many people have obviously learned to play the thing using those very features. it's like cutting a guitar players little finger off then selling it back to him as a feature.

Well, not quite but you get my drift.

supster · Post by **supster** » Sun Jul 10, 2005 8:52 pm

Martyn wrote: Yeah! Always best to have BOTH features, i can't see the point in taking anything away and replacing it with an alternative, not when so many people have obviously learned to play the thing using those very features.

well, as i said they're (imo, overly in some cases) adverse to adding too many options so they dont end up with feature bloat.

but i think in certain cases its too conservative. adding in a hotkey and/or small switch icon to give us direct control of the playhead back is not going to harm anyone, and it restores vital functionality.
.

Please Bring Back playback head scrubbing!

Are there freeware plug-ins that do something similar?